Reverse Redans

[Patrick_Mucci]

It seems that most of the reverse redans I've played have been drop shot holes.

Morris County's is probably the only one that immediately comes to mind that isn't.

Sleepy Hollow, LA North and The Creek present a reverse redan.

As much as I like the green and surrounds, play from an elevated tee seems to reduce the number of options off the tee.

In the CBM-SR-CB inventory, how many reverse redans have the green well below the tee.

How many have the green at the tee level or above it ?

This weekend I'll start a series of threads on template holes, but, for now, the reverse redan is up for discussion.

[Phil Benedict]

Fox Chapel has a reverse Redan with the green at or above tee level.  I only played it once so I am not exactly sure other than I know it's not below the tee level.

I prefer the standard Redan since it's easier to hit a low draw than a low fade.  A low curving shot seems like the shot that capitalizes on the tilt in a Redan green.  Plus if you overcook the curve you end up with an uphill chip or putt which is not a bad result.

[Ed Oden]

Pat, CC of Charleston has a reverse redan where tee and green are essentially the same level.  The huge false front is unlike any other redan I have seen...



...but this angle shows how the contours can be used to feed the ball toward back right pin positions...



Raynor clearly viewed it as a redan since he gave it that name.

Ed

[Patrick Hodgdon]

It seems that most of the reverse redans I've played have been drop shot holes.

Morris County's is probably the only one that immediately comes to mind that isn't.

Sleepy Hollow, LA North and The Creek present a reverse redan.

As much as I like the green and surrounds, play from an elevated tee seems to reduce the number of options off the tee.

In the CBM-SR-CB inventory, how many reverse redans have the green well below the tee.

How many have the green at the tee level or above it ?

This weekend I'll start a series of threads on template holes, but, for now, the reverse redan is up for discussion.

Mr Mucci-

Interlachen Country club has something close to a reverse redan at #17. It plays in the 200-230 yard range which makes a lot of shots run-up shots for some of the mid-higher handicaps and balls hit running at the bunker on the left usually kick down right onto the green.

It isn't really a drop shot but the green is about 10-20 yards lower with most of the drop starting 30 yards short of the green.

ICC #17 Tee


ICC #17 Approach


ICC #17 Looking back...


The other one that comes to mind is the awesome #7 at Pensacola Country Club which is one of the best Par 3's I've ever played if only because it is 240 yards (tips) to a reverse redan AND biarritz green. It's truly one of a kind. Not to mention the GCA's own Yoda got mad kudos from Jerry Pate the designer for knowing what a redan was when he built this hole and said "wow you built a reverse redan!"

PCC #7 Tee


PCC #7 Approach


PCC #7 Green

[Bill_McBride]

Here's a modern, subtle version of the Reverse Redan at Pensacola Country Club, my course in Northwest Florida designed by Jerry Pate.  It's level.  The front left slope will propel low shots to the back right through a Biarritz-like swale.

The hole plays 245/215/196 and is our #1 handicap hole.

[Mac Plumart]

When y'all say reverse redan, what do you mean?

Do you mean green angles right to left with mounding on the left side on the front of the green with green tilting front to back?  Like a mirror imaged redan.

Or do you mean everything is backwards from a redan...green slopes back to front, green angles right to left, mounding is behind the green.  If this is the case, isn't this real close to a Eden hole?

Thanks in advance for any clarification.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

When y'all say reverse redan, what do you mean?

Do you mean green angles right to left with mounding on the left side on the front of the green with green tilting front to back?  Like a mirror imaged redan.

Or do you mean everything is backwards from a redan...green slopes back to front, green angles right to left, mounding is behind the green.  If this is the case, isn't this real close to a Eden hole?

Thanks in advance for any clarification.

Mirror Image, same features so that the ideal play becomes a low fade rather than a low draw.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Here's a modern, subtle version of the Reverse Redan at Pensacola Country Club, my course in Northwest Florida designed by Jerry Pate.  It's level.  The front left slope will propel low shots to the back right through a Biarritz-like swale.

The hole plays 245/215/196 and is our #1 handicap hole.

Dude I totally posted this before you. 

[Mac Plumart]

Thanks Patrick H.

[Scott_Burroughs]

While not a MacRaynorBanks design, Black Creek in Chattanooga, TN is a tribute to their designs, designed by Brian Silva.  The Reverse
Redan (#7) green is at tee level:



Black Creek also has a Redan, #11, which IS a drop shot hole (and not very respresentative, IMO):

[Patrick_Mucci]

I don't know how I forgot, but, Forsgate, a Charles Banks course has a neat reverse redan with the green slightly lower than the tee.

[Gary Slatter]

snader   

[Bill_McBride]

Here's a modern, subtle version of the Reverse Redan at Pensacola Country Club, my course in Northwest Florida designed by Jerry Pate.  It's level.  The front left slope will propel low shots to the back right through a Biarritz-like swale.

The hole plays 245/215/196 and is our #1 handicap hole.

Dude I totally posted this before you. 

Thanks, Dude, I'm glad you enjoyed it!!

[Michael Whitaker]

Here's a modern, subtle version of the Reverse Redan at Pensacola Country Club, my course in Northwest Florida designed by Jerry Pate.  It's level.  The front left slope will propel low shots to the back right through a Biarritz-like swale.

The hole plays 245/215/196 and is our #1 handicap hole.

Dude I totally posted this before you. 

Thanks, Dude, I'm glad you enjoyed it!!

#7 at PCC is a great hole... among many great holes. Love the course Bill!

[Ronald Montesano]

I will the nomination of Mr. Phil Benedict on Fox Chapel...what a fearsome hole!  The bunker is enormous and the hole comes on the heels of a treacherous Cape hole (with elevated, table-top green of a certain firmness.)  If you took your lumps on 5 and now face a mid to long iron shot on 6, it's the slicer's nightmare!  The green is also sloped from top left to bottom right, making most putts scarier than prison.  To my recollection, I slid an iron onto the green, whispered to the ball on my approach putt and tapped in for par (although I might have three-whacked and, through compassionate counseling, have now blocked the memory from my conscious recollection.)

--Ron M.

[Chris Shaida]

The 'Redan' hole at Tamarack (CT) has the tee well above the green.  Frankly I guess I don't really understand the essential 'redan' characteristics because that hole doesn't seem like a redan to me, since you see the whole green clearly from the tee.  There is a very steep grass bank on the left so I guess if you miss the green down there it would present a very fearsome shot up and over the fort-like bank but...

[TEPaul]

Pat:


While I actually appreciate all the different variations of the redan, in my opinion, the two best redans I know of are NGLA's and Piping Rock's. I say that because I really like how on those two with firm and fast condtions you pretty much have to play the ball to the fairway kicker on the right and basically sort of have the ball fall off that fairway kicker and start trickling down and away to the green that's oriented at a pretty severe angle to the line of flight of the tee shot. I think North Berwick is sort of that way but on that hole since the right side is hidden from the tee I did not actually get the chance to watch the ball after it landed.

The only reverse redan I ever saw that was the way those to regular redans are was the reverse redan at the old Links Club which is gone now. And that's why I always felt that reverse redan was the best I ever saw and by quite a lot. It used to drive may dad and his other good playing friends nuts because you really did have to hit a sort of specialty shot to keep the ball on that particular green and the hole was pretty long since those guys generally used like a 4 wood. It seemed like the ideal shot was a low cut which isn't an easy shot to hit particularly considering you really had to get the distance and the "weight" just right on that particular tee shot. There was no way you could fly the ball over the bunker right at the green as the green was far to shallow to that line of play----eg it would just run right over the back into a deep bunker behind.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I agree with you about PR and NGLA, but, I wonder if PR's isn't the "purer' of the two.

I like the concept of having to "assault" the fortification from below, versus bombing it from above.

NGLA's tee is about at the green's height so it's not one of those drop shot Redan's and it has another major benefit.
The play of NGLA's Redan is aided by the prevailing wind.

In fact, I think the prevailing wind is the architectural icing on the cake on the 4th hole at NGLA.

[herrstein]

St. Louis CC #16 is a great Reverse Redan. Don't have a picture.
I played #7 Black Creek today into a 15 mph wind. Had to bounce a 3 wood on. 242 yards, played about 265.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Regarding your Post #17, to me NGLA's redan is prettier than Piping's for a number of reason including over-all setting etc but I think for pure redan "shot value" Piping's is a little better because the green is higher than the tee (that fortification thing) and the green is oriented closer to a 90% angle to the line of flight which to me is very important for that traditional "redan" shot that basically needs to come off the fairway kicker to the right to be most effective.

I think NGLA's redan was pretty obviously fairly natural landform-wise as it sits on a fairly natural ridgeline that slopes right to left while Piping's redan green I feel was pretty much totally manufactured. To me the dead giveaway to that is the enormous pit or depression to the right of the green as well as how far above the left side of the green is to what's left of it. That massive pit to the right pretty much matches the green in quantity as a cut and fill.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Since skyline greens are amongst my favorites, I tend to favor the elevated, fortified type of green, such as PR's Redan and NGLA's 8th hole.

I think the demand is higher when you're forced to hit to an elevated green versus one that's at your level or lower.

[Donnie Beck]

The 12th is uphill at Fishers

[Kevin Pallier]

Donnie

I was thinking of adding a pic of the approach shot into 12 at FI. That is a fun golf shot into that green particularly when FI also has a regular styled Redan at 2.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

It seems that most of the reverse redans I've played have been drop shot holes.

Morris County's is probably the only one that immediately comes to mind that isn't.

Sleepy Hollow, LA North and The Creek present a reverse redan.

As much as I like the green and surrounds, play from an elevated tee seems to reduce the number of options off the tee.

In the CBM-SR-CB inventory, how many reverse redans have the green well below the tee.

How many have the green at the tee level or above it ?

This weekend I'll start a series of threads on template holes, but, for now, the reverse redan is up for discussion.

Pat,

  Is The Creek's tee that elevated from the green surface?  As I recall the hole, it was pretty level with the tees--Wayne Freeman and I played there a few years ago.  I seem to recall Forsgate's reverse redan had a higher tee than the green, by a substantial amount, but it's been close to 8 years since I played there. 

Do you like the reverse redan more or less than the "traditional" redan?

And, back to the original 'drop shot' feature, is that because it's easier to hit a cut and have it hold the green, whereas, on a traditional redan, playing more level or below the green surface, a draw would have enough 'run' in it to hit the kicker and run down the green to left hole locations? 

Hidden Creek's redan-influenced 4th has a slightly elevated tee, as you know.  That was our starting hole 5 years ago during your symposium there.   

[Steve Lang]

   CBM: "Take a narrow tableland, tilt it a little from right to left, dig a deep bunker on the front side, approach it diagonally and you have a Redan"

i like the wiki pic:


seems like a drop shot to a redan is so anathema to its design within the context of a ground game as to not really be such.. just a drop shot