[Mike Cirba]

Matt,

You must be more in-tune to what's being marketed out there than I am.

I'd say it's all PR at this point, because the golf, with few exceptions like Jack Frost, is status quo, for better or worse.

One other change, sad to say, is the news that perhaps nine of the quirkiest holes in the Poconos, the "Silver Nine" at Mountain Manor, which "featured" a 750 yard par 6, has been closed, leaving the resort with 27 holes.

Of course, the "Orange Nine", that had been played as a single 18 with the Silver, is still open, and that might leave enough quirk for anyone desiring some.   Beginning with a par four that climbs about 150 feet in elevation, it's a gem. 

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Are there any investors out there who would like to  be a part of Tamiment National?

[Mike Cirba]

Are there any investors out there who would like to  be a part of Tamiment National?

Steve,

I've got $8, if that helps.

I'm thinking more the "TPC at Tamiment National Links".  

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Mike,

Was that a misprint? There are no zeros behind that $8 

I'm sticking with Tamiment National. I have fond memories of working there. I've already contacted Roger Rulewich to pay a visit and see what he can do there. The bones are there.

[Mike Cirba]

Mike,

Was that a misprint? There are no zeros behind that $8 

I'm sticking with Tamiment National. I have fond memories of working there. I've already contacted Roger Rulewich to pay a visit and see what he can do there. The bones are there.

Rulewich?!? 

What about Rees??!  I'm thinking he could build better spectator mounds.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

The Poconos branding should start with the campaign -- best real type miniature golf available. Who knows -- the next fad for golf may take off there !

Steve:

The bones at Tamiment -- bring forward Dr. Indiana Jones because they are quite deep and may need some real probing to find them.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I don't want my course "Reesiified" I want a RTJ original "sympathetically restored."

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Here's an article on Mount Airy's notorious first hole:


http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100528/SPORTS/5280385

[Ronald Montesano]

The problem, as I see it, is the following:

Shawnee, the Golden Age course that freaks on this site seem to hold onto, isn't that great.  The piece of land is really flat and, honestly, they have done all that they can do with it, as I see it.  Sorry.  Shawnee is hardly in the Pokes, anyway, being much closer to down east and definitely out of the mountains.

The modern courses are all the same type...mountain goat courses.  There is no variety of layout.  You can't build a dunes course, a links-style course, a heathland course...all you can do is build the same course on a different piece of land.

The casinos are THE way to bring people in...here's my analogy:

About ten years ago, I traveled to Costa Rica with a student exchange.  Golf was just beginning its ascent in that country.  Why?  Wouldn't eco-tourism hold up?  Yes, for the moms and the kids.  The dads?  PLEASE!  They wanted their golf...let honey and the kids go see the sloths, the cloud forests, the volcanoes.  As a result, CR now has a burgeoning golf course business and attracts repeat visitors.

When I was in the Pokes two years ago, we stayed at Split Rock.  They have an easy nine, a challenging nine and right behind our condo, the makings of a third, also challenging, nine.  What about it?  Mountain golf.  No different from any of the other courses I played there.

[Mike Cirba]

Ronald,

No one is saying that Shawnee is very good right now.   It's not.

They took an 18 hole course and made it 27, and there is very, very little original Tillinghast left.

What got some of us excited was the idea of Tom Doak doing a restoration of the original Tillinghast course.   Even though it's not a rolling site, there is certainly opportunity for something good as much of the soil is sandy, and it's a lovely river-side valley.

[Ronald Montesano]

Mike,
Now you have intrigued me...does anyone have access to the original 18 hole layout?  When I played, I found it to be an enjoyable 27, with no idea that the island had contained 14 holes at one point (about 4 total holes are off the island, correct?)  I would like to see the original 18 before confirming what I previously wrote.

[Michael Blake]

When I was in the Pokes two years ago, we stayed at Split Rock.  They have an easy nine, a challenging nine and right behind our condo, the makings of a third, also challenging, nine.  What about it?  Mountain golf.  No different from any of the other courses I played there.

I play Split Rock every July in an outing.
Tight, tree-lined, mountain courses are not my idea of fun.
Seems that's what Poconos golf is all about.

[Mike Cirba]

Ron,

I have the original 18 at Shawnee drawing around here somewhere.   Perhaps if Joe or Phil sees this thread they can post it quickly.

Michael,

Split Rock is awful.   There are much better, and Jack Frost is among the couple of courses up there I'd send folks without much fear of embarrassment.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Here's the original 18 at Shawnee as of 1914. It's not the original 18 as built as some holes were modified. See Phil Young's comments in my Poconos thread of last year referred to in #2 above:

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Tamiment owners cryptic about plans:

http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100604/SPORTS/6040374/-1/SPORTS

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Here is an article about the Mount Airy Casino "turnaround"

http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100603/NEWS/6030318

[Steve_ Shaffer]

News from the Poconos- win a golfing trip AND table games are coming to the Mount Airy Casino!

http://www.thegolfwire.com/stories/219892

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Thanks for the update -- the issue for the Poconos is that vacation time and opportunity have passes it by. People now have access and a desire to travel to other areas. There is no real "buzz" about the Poconos -- although because of today's economy some people may go there because of lower fees than elsewhere and closer proximity to home.

The golf side is more about casual entertainment.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Now that table games have come to PA, the Poconos are doing very well and so is the rest of the state:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/03/nyregion/03mtairy.html?_r=1&hp

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

I just returned from the Poconos for a few days and have to say the introduction of the table games will make a difference. The issue is whether or not the golf side of things is equal to that addition.

[Phil_the_Author]

Steve,

That is not the original 18-hole routing and design of Shawnee. Take a careful look at the 2nd tee and you can see that it is on the opposite side of the Binniekill from the fairway. That was part of the 1912-13 rerouting and redesign and lengthening of the course by more than 500 yards by Tilly. That drawing was done between 1915 & 1917 and not done by Tilly.

If you visit the Tilly Association website and look at the last issue of Tillinghast Illustrated there is a brief course evolution history of Shawnee. In it you will se a copy of the ORIGINAL 1911 course as it appeared on opening day May 23rd. It was part of an advertising brochure and done before the course and Inn opened. It was drawn and written by Tilly himself and contains a hole-by-hole description as well.

It is my understanding that a 100-year anniversary book is currently being written for release next year and that the facts presented have been meticulously researched and are unquestionable as to their veracity and will prove able to stand up as such even 30-40 years from now if someone with a few newspaper articles that seem to contradict arcane points come forward with a "discovery" and claims that the book's author was not a "contemporary" of the time he was writing about...

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

One additional item -- the Poconos has an array of entertaining courses but they don't really have a show stopper -- something that makes you say "must play" eagerly and often.

Until that happens -- the area will be helped by those into table games and the like -- the serious golfer will still see the place as the "B" leagues.

[Tim McManus]

Steve:

One additional item -- the Poconos has an array of entertaining courses but they don't really have a show stopper -- something that makes you say "must play" eagerly and often.

Until that happens -- the area will be helped by those into table games and the like -- the serious golfer will still see the place as the "B" leagues.

what are the entertaining courses that you think are worth playing if in the area? 

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt

Have you played Jack Frost National yet?

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

I used the word "entertaining" in the most favorable way -- Pocono golf is blessed with plenty of sporty and often times fairly benign layouts that are e-z to play for the masses. Unfortunately, the area doesn't have a show stopper that says "wow" and makes you want to play there at all costs.

I used to play a number of rounds at Glenbrook and always thought it was entertaining. I don't mean to use the word in a negative sense -- just highlighting the fact that top tier design type courses are just not there yet.

Steve:

Yes, I have. Liked it and it's better than many other layouts in the area but I'd still take Morgan Hill and Lederach over it.

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