The Poconos attempt to resurrect ...

[Matt_Ward]

One of the more interesting elements I have seen is how certain areas of the country are attempting to reposition or rebrand themselves as a golf area of note.

The Poconos used to be a major beehive of golf activity for many years -- the high time being the 50's and 60's with a bit of spillover in the 70's. With cheap air transportation and a penchant for people to travel the Poconos slowly but ever surely faded into the background.

There's been a resurgence of late -- Mt Airy Lodge is doing more than simply advertising the same tired heart shaped tubs that put the place on the map long ago.

I still think the golf designs there are akin to fast food offerings. No doubt the price points are attractive and when you are located on the doorstep of NYC (via I-80) and Philly (via Pennsy Tpke) you have plenty of people from which to grab your dollar share. I don't see much that would make me return there but no doubt there's been movement to rebrand a tired label with some life.

Curious to know what others think -- especially those who have been there recemtly -- as in last year and in 2010.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt,

I was there last summer. Here's the thread:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40802.0/


The advent of the casino at Mt. Airy Lodge will certainly bring more tourists to the area. It's a nice complex with a golf course. I didn't play there. Jack Frost National GC is nearby. I didn't play there either. I took a look at Water Gap but didn't play there.


If Shawnee ever gets restored by Doak, that should create a golfing stir nationally.

[Mike Cirba]

Matt,

Jack Frost is quite good, unusually so in that it is a very playable golf course routed pretty elegantly on a mountain slope.

A friend of mine played Mount Airy the other day and said there was a lot of work going on...some years ago Dan Schlegel was set to do a redesign/revamp and I was really looking forward to seeing what he'd produce as he's done some really good courses like Heron Glen, which we played together.

I'm not sure if he's still on board there because the project went on hold when the owner's legal situation was being sorted out, but I'll see what I can find out.

Not sure what else is going on other than the fact that I live there these days, yet still find myself running to Cobb's Creek most weekends.     

Would love to see the Shawnee thing happen...Joe and I played there last year and there is certainly not much Tilly left these days.

Mike

[Jim Franklin]

I am headed to Pocono Palace this weekend. Is that the same place you are talking about? I have never been and am going for my 12th anniversary. I will bring my sticks and hopefully play one day.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Here's a video of the course at Mount Airy Lodge with a glimpse of the new Hotel/Casino:


http://youtube.com/watch?v=J78ypNPhEeY&feature=related

[Mike Cirba]

I am headed to Pocono Palace this weekend. Is that the same place you are talking about? I have never been and am going for my 12th anniversary. I will bring my sticks and hopefully play one day.

Jim,

No, Pocono Palace is different from Mount Airy, which has become a casino in recent years.

PP has a really poor nine hole course built by the original owner in the 60s...I'm not sure if it's still in existence but I played it quite a few years back.   It's more of a "couples resort".

The course at Mount Airy was Hal Purdy's attempt to design something based on the 18 best holes in America on land ill-suited for the purpose.   It features perhaps the worst, most difficult starting hole on the planet which climbs a ski slope (literally) before bottoming out a a blind lake 150 yards from the green that extends to the front edge.

There are some good holes and some silly, horrible ones, but it's worth seeing on a visually appealing site.   If you play from the tips, you get the added bonus of two completely blind 220 yard par threes.

Steve,

Do you know anything about the "All New Executive Course" featured in the video?

[Andy Hughes]

Mike, some chance I may be back in the Poconos after all these years around the week  of July 4th.  Are any of the courses of my youth (Glenbrook, Water Gap, Pocono Manor, Shawnee etc) redone/cleaned/improved up in the last 30 years or are they all essentially what they were but a litte more tired?

Matt, are you seeing actual golf improvements or more a change in PR/branding?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Mike,

There'a only one course at Mount Airy. The work being done there is just the installation of irrigation systems.

There is an "executive" course nearby: www.paradisegolfpark.net

[Mike Cirba]

Mike,

There'a only one course at Mount Airy. The work being done there is just the installation of irrigation systems.

There is an "executive" course nearby: www.paradisegolfpark.net

Steve,

Now that's funny!

Talking about things coming full circle.

I used to wait tables at Mount Airy when I was in college.   And what today is "Paradise Park" is the remnants of a nine-hole golf course called Wiscasset that I played in my first winter of golf back in 1973.   There were still patches of snow on the ground, the course was closed, but a friend who worked with my father said he knew this place in the Poconos that didn't mind if you went out there and hit it around so my dad, his friend, and two brothers and I played about 18 frigid holes.

Years later, in deference to completing my scorecard collection, I stopped by there and picked up a scorecard and belatedly paid my green fees in arrears.

Oh, by they way, Wiscasset was designed by Robert White and the 8th hole had a green set behind Mae West mounds.    


Andy,

Not sure which courses have been spruced up or not.   I probably haven't played them in almost as long as you, with the exception of Shawnee, which is crying for the Doak re-do, and Pocono Manor East which is about the same.

Buck Hill always seems to be a good choice, though.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Good question ... there's been more of a concerted desire to rebrand the image of the Poconos and the casino dimension is meant to lure people away from AC and other spots.

The golf side is what lacks. I am not as optimistic as Mike and a few others regarding Shawnee. No doubt Doak is talented but the place needs a BIG TIME COURSE overhaul. The existing layout is OK -- but from a classic style perspective the real needs are still left to be put into place in my mind.

The Poconos was meant as a vacation destination for those of modest means. It was never the Hamptons or Newport or any other tony type place where the elite meet.

The Poconos needs a rejuvenation that will make people want to go there -- I always thought the Nicklaus course in Marshalls Creek was a solid public layout and worth the visit -- but it's become private. I have not played Jack Frost but if it's not really that much better than Morgan Hill or Heron Glen then I don't see the need. The Poconos must create that NEED.

[Mike Cirba]

Matt,

Not sure I understand that last reference about Jack Frost.

If a course as good as Morgan Hill and/or Heron Glen has been created in the Poconos, wouldn't that be a major improvement in your eyes?

Me, I still am much fonder of the quirky stuff than you are, but your larger point of the Poconos not having a real "destination course" is understood.   

I'm just not sure what you're expecting to happen.  Much of the land is severe and wooded and very rocky, not ideal at all for great golf, and it reminds me of the Catskills in that respect.   Nice place to visit (and live)...not sure I'd want to build a golf course there, though.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

The Poconos lacks the "buzz." Few people -- likely no one -- wakes up in the morning on a beautiful golf day and says let's trek to the Poconos for the golf side of things.

I have not played Jack Frost but if the layout there is just another 18 holes equivalent to what you already have in the Poconos then that's really not improvement in my mind.

The Poconos has tough terrain but a qualified architect can do plenty with the right site. The issue is $$ and if housing is tied to it then you have another issue of concern too.

The flip side is improving some of the existing courses there. Mt Airy attempted to copy the top SI holes and lacks so much in that regard. The site could have been used more creatively. I also think the bulk of the golf there is in the fashion you mentioned -- quirky / executive style golf. The Poconos in the past saw golf as just ANOTHER leisure activity -- like horseshoes and the like.

The Nicklaus course at Marshalls Creek shows what can be done if the proper thinking and $$ is applied.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt,

Do you think a quality restoration of RTJ's Tamiment woud help? It was sad to see its current condition when I visited last year.

Just found this:

http://www.tamiment.com/sites/courses/layout9.asp?id=323&page=7804

Doesn't look good. The resort was demolished and the housing market there is non-existent. Could be NLE.

[Mike Cirba]

Matt,

I'd say Jack Frost is in the range of the Nicklaus Great Bear course...better in some respects, perhaps less so in others.   I'd be interested to hear your opinion if you ever come play it.

I don't see the economics of trying to build a great course in the Poconos on rocky, hilly, wooded land makes any ROI sense whatsoever, particularly with today's economics.

Think Raynor at Yale...technically and economically feasible in mid-to-late 1920s $$flush times, practically insane and wasteful a few years later.

That's where things are at.

[Mike Cirba]

Matt,

Got the scoop at Mount Airy from three sources.    It's an irrigation replacement project, pure and simple.

I also have it on good word that Geoffrey Cornish's Mountain Laurel GC, {fka Pocono Hershey, fka Le Chateau) is being particularly well cared for these days if you're in the neighborhood looking for a game.

What was the point of this thread again?    

[Jim Franklin]

So I shouldn't waste my time bringing clubs to Pocono Palace? Besides the obvious reason I am going , is there anything to do there?

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

It wholly depends on your restorative powers.

If you need a two-hour intermission, the Palace's nine holer may provide a needed diversion.

If not, there's nothing compelling architecturally, that's for sure!  .

[Matt_Ward]

Years ago those from points east -- North Jersey and all of the greater NYC-area ventured to the Poconos because it was a cheap and e-z to access location. The golf was fairly mundane but you accepted it because it did have some fairly low level designs -- a few of which even rose to the level of interesting.

Because of a lack of $$ and real long term planning the area as a whole simply faded from view -- not as bad as Sullivan County and the Catskills but not too many steps behind.

I will venture to Jack Frost sometime this year to see firsthand -- I do like Great Bear although it's now private and if a real vision were applied to Shawnee there is hope there. But I don't see the big time vaca operators like Marriott or Hilton or Hyatt seeing much $$ with the Poconos. Without a real destination course to latch things upon the best level one can see from the area is providing for recreational outlets for golf -- the real passionate types who yearn for a good bit more will be disappiointed.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Jack Frost did come in at #20 in GW's Best New of 2009:

http://www.golfweek.com/news/2009/oct/17/2009-golfweeks-best-new-courses/

[Mike Salinetti]

So I shouldn't waste my time bringing clubs to Pocono Palace? Besides the obvious reason I am going , is there anything to do there?


Jim, There is absolutely nothing to do in the Poconos. I was a superintendent at the now Middle Smithfield Township run Country Club of the Poconos from 2004 to the end of 2008. My family and I are so happy not to be living there. The best golf is probably Great Bear if your looking for a fairly decent layout and nice conditions.

[Richard Hetzel]

Matt,

I pass through that area quite often. In fact, I thought Water Gap (AKA Wolf Hollow CC back in the day) was an extremely enjoyable round of golf! I wouldn't make it a destination, but worth jumping out of the car for round if passing through.

[Matt_Ward]

Richard:

It all depend upon your taste for golf -- some people can hack handling fast food quirky places -- the Poconos can certainly provide that golf dimension. Look, I'm not expecting Bandon Dunes or anything close to it -- but the rebranding of the Poconos must go beyond upgrared hotels rooms and slot machines and the likes as a long term plan.

The golf side is merely a diversion entertainment staple -- it has not amounted to more than that.

Without a slew of quality layouts -- no less than 2-3 -- the likelihood of people saying "we must go" is likely more a pipedream than reality.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt,

On the other hand, people will go there because it's less expensive. Perhaps that should be the "brand" of Poconos Golf.

Perhaps when I win the Powerball, I'll buy the closed Tamiment and restore it and turn it into Tamiment National after I build guest cottages for my members. 

[Mike Cirba]

Matt,

I'm still not sure who you think is trying to resurrect or re-brand golf in the Poconos, which seems your basic contention here?

Do you have any evidence of that assertion, or have you simply created a straw man so you can burn it down again?    

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

The State of Pennsy is making a big time noise about re-positioning the Poconos as a destination location and the golf dimension is touted as one of the lures for going there.

A few of the facilitiies -- including Shawness spend some serious in revamping rooms that looked like Lincoln literally slept in before the efforts got underway. Ditto what Mt Airy has been doing.

There is even a Poconos golf consortium -- likely in its infancy -- trying to promote what's there.

Mike, no straw man here -- just trying to wonder if the hype and planning really has some depth to it beyond the banging of the PR drum.