[Ben Sims]

Hi gang.  I've been out of the going for a week or so based on a wedding/golf trip I just returned from.  Aside from a good friend's wedding, the highlight of the trip was Yale and Oakmont.  I also played Hartford GC, and though it doesn't enjoy the pedigree of the other two, it had some solid golf holes.  On the plane back to Del Rio last night, I jotted down some thoughts--some may require separate threads--and these "talking points" were the biggies.

1. Oakmont #8 rivals #10 at Riviera as a par 3.5 when played from the back tees

2. The Penal school at can be fun.  And also aesthetically pleasing

3. Why oh why did Oakmont ever have all those trees?

4. Yale HAS to be in the best condition in decades.  Scott Ramsey deserves an award for it. 

5. The "engineered look" flowed much more seamlessly that I expected it to over such rugged terrain.

6. I still don't know which is tougher.  Flatter greens set on an angle or tilt, or evil internal contours, or both (see #2 green at Oakmont)

I would definitely rank Yale and Oakmont as the hardest courses I've ever played.  And yet, I didn't feel beat up as much as I was thinking.  Yale took it's blood out of me based on my own poor play, but Oakmont--oddly--didn't.  There is no doubt that Oakmont is a very hard golf course.  But a combination of routing and crescendo of hard and breather--by Oakmont standards--holes really evened it out.  And the bunker positioning at both courses might be some of the best in golf as well. 

Your thoughts please....

--As an aside, there was a ton of LPGA stars out yesterday morning at Oakmont.  We watched Morgan Pressel three putt the ninth green up and over the piano bench to a front right pin.  We watched Christie Kerr tee off a group ahead of us on #1.  Apparently they all shot somewhere between 4 and 7 over par.  Michelle Wie and her entourage were taking photos and video as our group teed off the back #10 tee to the 12th fairway.  Somewhere on tape is three guys all striping 310 yard face melters onto one of the longest major championship holes in golf --

[JESII]

Two immediate thoughts...

1 - Would you be more compelled to lay up on #10 at Riviera than #8 at Oakmont because it's a par 4?

2 - New favorite slang - face melter...

[Fred Yanni]

Ben,

Sounds like a great trip.  I love the Yale course.  It was interesting that you felt it was one of the most difficult you have played (although you admit it was through your own poor play).  I was just curious where you had your issues at Yale?  

I found Yale to be pretty wide open off of the tee.  I was able to advance the ball even after errant tee shots.  IMO the difficulty of the course is almost 100% based on the severity of the green complexes.  The combination of raised/elevated green complexes and deep bunkers combined with the severity and size of the putting surfaces makes for a long day if one misses on the wrong side of the hole.

I was also curious about your thoughts on the severity of the 10th green (I think it is too severe and lacks enough playable pin placements)  and the 18th hole (which is very disappointing considering the quality of the previous 17 holes).

Thanks
Fred

[Mike_Young]

Ben,

Sounds like a great trip.  I love the Yale course.  It was interesting that you felt it was one of the most difficult you have played (although you admit it was through your own poor play).  I was just curious where you had your issues at Yale?  

I found Yale to be pretty wide open off of the tee.  I was able to advance the ball even after errant tee shots.  IMO the difficulty of the course is almost 100% based on the severity of the green complexes.  The combination of raised/elevated green complexes and deep bunkers combined with the severity and size of the putting surfaces makes for a long day if one misses on the wrong side of the hole.

I was also curious about your thoughts on the severity of the 10th green (I think it is too severe and lacks enough playable pin placements)  and the 18th hole (which is very disappointing considering the quality of the previous 17 holes).

Thanks
Fred

Fred,
I see you are new here...really like your stuff....I saw you at the Acropolis...are you still dating Linda Evans....

[Fred Yanni]

Mike,

The whole Linda thing ended badly.  And then there was the domestic violence incident with my next lady friend.  I have been laying low and have decided not to tourture society with my music for now.  Golf is much more relaxing than composing strange music that only 70 year old ladies and John Tesh like.

 - Yanni

[Ben Sims]

Two immediate thoughts...

1 - Would you be more compelled to lay up on #10 at Riviera than #8 at Oakmont because it's a par 4?

2 - New favorite slang - face melter...

Jim,

I think so, yeah.  In my case at Oakmont it was accidental.  I wasn't trying to lay up and I struck the ball poorly, it left me with a simple 40 yard pitch to a sizable target.  Funny thing is this.  Making a three at both is incumbent upon one putting.  Which green is the easier one putt?  I think we all know that answer.  I think it'd be interesting to see what the average scores were for each hole at the 2007 LA Open and The 2007 US Open.  

Fred,

I'll forget the issues with topped tee balls for the sake of argument

I would say that Yale presents some of the most difficult up and down scenarios in golf.  The greenside bunkering is penal and positioned in a way that leaves no shot at a realistic up and in.  The other thing that struck me is hoe often I repeated the phrase "150 uphill to a blind green surface".  The opportunity for success on that shot is small.

I think everyone needs to see Yale to understand how a course can have wide fairways and large greens and still kick your butt.  

[Matt Bosela]

Ben,

Interesting thoughts - I'll concentrate on the Riviera and Oakmont comparisons since I haven't played Yale.

I really don't think the 8th at Oakmont is that tough - yes, it's super long but even then, the green is open in front, the fairway turf is cut very short allowing for a running approach and the green is likely the flatest and easiest to putt on the entire golf course.  I think it plays about 20+ yards shorter than the scorecard indicates purely because of how firm and fast that course plays under normal circumstances.

Compare that to Riviera's 10th - a short par four that only opens up in the front left portion of the green and even there, you have maybe the most shallow portion of the green to hit.  If you land short in the bunker, you'll likely make par.  If you go long off the tee, you bring bogey five into play with a chilli-dip chip or a pitch that goes long through the green back into the front bunker.  Of course, the best option off the tee is playing it as a par four, laying up well left to open up the green for the approach - so yes, I'd definitely consider this as a possible half par hole.

On the other hand, I guess I just think there is no real strategy to playing Oakmont's 8th - just hit it at the green - if you're short, it's a relatively routine chip shot and a reasonable chance of getting up and down...if you hit the green, it's a routine two putt.  So not sure if I'd call it a half par hole due to the fact most wouldn't be playing for bogey from the tee.

I agree with all of your other thoughts on Oakmont - I thought the place was unspeakably beautiful and I very much enjoyed the penal nature of the golf course.  It's an exacting test of golf but I never felt like the course was wearing me down - you just need to give every shot your full attention and I found that to be a heck of a lot of fun.

[Andrew Lewis]

I found Yale to be pretty wide open off of the tee.  I was able to advance the ball even after errant tee shots.  IMO the difficulty of the course is almost 100% based on the severity of the green complexes.  The combination of raised/elevated green complexes and deep bunkers combined with the severity and size of the putting surfaces makes for a long day if one misses on the wrong side of the hole.

I was also curious about your thoughts on the severity of the 10th green (I think it is too severe and lacks enough playable pin placements)  and the 18th hole (which is very disappointing considering the quality of the previous 17 holes).

Thanks
Fred

Fred -

I'd certainly agree that Yale is open off the tee.  It doesn't unduly punish the higher handicapper, but still challenges the better player to position his/her approaches in more narrow sections to set up a preferred angle into the green.  For instance, the Principle's Nose on 17 blocks out approaches from the left, and the kicker-boards on 2 and 8 aren't as useful from the right. 

The 10th green is undoubtedly severe, but perhaps not markedly so compared to several others.  And I've always found the internal countours helpful and fun in feeding stray approaches up and down the slope to the hole.

I'd be interested in hearing more on why you found the 18th disappointing, especially in contrast to the course's other par 5, the 16th.

Best, Andrew

[Fred Yanni]

Andrew,
I won’t compare and contrast the holes as both par 5s are not strong holes in my mind when compared to the rest of the course.  The 16th is a straight forward par 5 that will yield eagle opportunities if you get the right bounce in the landing zone. 

We probably can have an entire thread on the 18th at Yale as I know there are strong opinions about the hole.  However, since you asked why I feel the way I do, here is an abridged version of my thoughts:

The basic flaw with the hole in my mind is that there is the illusion of optionality and playability from both the tee and on the 2nd shot (between the upper and lower fairways) when there is really none.  The player is led to believe from the tee that an aggressive line over the mound that guards the right of the fairway will lead to a chance to go for the green or result in a decent layup shot down the right side of the fairway.  For 99% of players, neither is true.

The upslope on the left fairway route is way too severe for most players to take advantage of the hole after hitting a perfectly placed tee shot.  In other words, there is no reward on the hole for taking an aggressive line off the tee. 

Playing your drive safe and laying back is suicide for the average player as most can’t get their 2nd shot to the top of hill on the left route.  And for the few players that get it up to the flat on the left fairway, many walk up to find their ball stuck in the rough on the severe slope between the upper and lower fairway as the ball feeds towards the hillside.   If the player decides to go right or “safer way”, they are left with a long blind or semi blind layup, requiring a draw to a narrow fairway that slopes away from them down a slope or to a steam further up if memory serves.

In summary, there is no reward for taking risk off the tee and neither route on the 2nd shot is particularly a fair or appealing option for 99% of players.   Don’t get me wrong, I love good 3 shot par 5s, the 18th at Yale just isn’t one of them.  It fails the playability test for the majority of players. 

 

[astavrides]

Mike,

The whole Linda thing ended badly.  And then there was the domestic violence incident with my next lady friend.  I have been laying low and have decided not to tourture society with my music for now.  Golf is much more relaxing than composing strage music that only 70 year old ladies and John Tesh like.

 - Yanni

I like most of your CBS golf music though, and i am neither a 70 year old chick,, nor john tesh.

[Andrew Lewis]

Fred -

Many thanks for the elaboration.  I generally agree with your points, I recall that Scott and his team are trying to widen the right-side playing corridor, which could help with playability.

In any case, I still like the hole for its quirkiness.  The left side yields fun shots -- either up-and-over to catch the downslope or just to land it on the top, depending on how far back one's drive lands...which can be quite far if playing the tips!

Best, Andrew

[Tim Martin]

Andrew,
I won’t compare and contrast the holes as both par 5s are not strong holes in my mind when compared to the rest of the course.  The 16th is a straight forward par 5 that will yield eagle opportunities if you get the right bounce in the landing zone. 

We probably can have an entire thread on the 18th at Yale as I know there are strong opinions about the hole.  However, since you asked why I feel the way I do, here is an abridged version of my thoughts:

The basic flaw with the hole in my mind is that there is the illusion of optionality and playability from both the tee and on the 2nd shot (between the upper and lower fairways) when there is really none.  The player is led to believe from the tee that an aggressive line over the mound that guards the right of the fairway will lead to a chance to go for the green or result in a decent layup shot down the right side of the fairway.  For 99% of players, neither is true.

The upslope on the left fairway route is way too severe for most players to take advantage of the hole after hitting a perfectly placed tee shot.  In other words, there is no reward on the hole for taking an aggressive line off the tee. 

Playing your drive safe and laying back is suicide for the average player as most can’t get their 2nd shot to the top of hill on the left route.  And for the few players that get it up to the flat on the left fairway, many walk up to find their ball stuck in the rough on the severe slope between the upper and lower fairway as the ball feeds towards the hillside.   If the player decides to go right or “safer way”, they are left with a long blind or semi blind layup, requiring a draw to a narrow fairway that slopes away from them down a slope or to a steam further up if memory serves.

In summary, there is no reward for taking risk off the tee and neither route on the 2nd shot is particularly a fair or appealing option for 99% of players.   Don’t get me wrong, I love good 3 shot par 5s, the 18th at Yale just isn’t one of them.  It fails the playability test for the majority of players. 

 

Fred- I disagree totally on your take of 18 at Yale. There are options on the tee shot and second shots. From the member tees the average player could hit 5 wood and 3 or 4 iron or hybrid to 165 yds high or low fairway. If you you do have a blind 3rd from the lower fairway you should be used to them by this point in the round. To my mind a remarkable finisher and a truly one of a kind hole.

[Fred Yanni]

Tim

Thats why it is a great site - always different opinions.  As of now I think they should blow the entire hole up it up and you love it.

I would love to hear your take as do what options there are on the tee shot.  In my mind any reward for taking it right over the mounds is neutralized as you are closer to the steep incline and forced to hit less club because you need to get the ball up so quickly.   I did play the back tees BTW and have not played the course up so my take is from there.

I of course am open to changing my mind on the hole as I gain more experience with the course.  I have only played a few rounds there.   


Fred

[Jim_Kennedy]

5. The "engineered look" flowed much more seamlessly that I expected it to over such rugged terrain.

They're a combination made in heaven 

[Tim Martin]

Tim

Thats why it is a great site - always different opinions.  As of now I think they should blow the entire hole up it up and you love it.

I would love to hear your take as do what options there are on the tee shot.  In my mind any reward for taking it right over the mounds is neutralized as you are closer to the steep incline and forced to hit less club because you need to get the ball up so quickly.   I did play the back tees BTW and have not played the course up so my take is from there.

I of course am open to changing my mind on the hole as I gain more experience with the course.  I have only played a few rounds there.   


Fred

Fred-I never considered or have I seen anyone not try to hit it over the mounds and into the flat. Where the fairway starts over the mounds until it runs out at the hill must be at least fifty yards leaving quite a generous landing area. The top tee from 604 is rarely if ever open for member play so the long tees would only require a 200 if that carry over the mounds. Leaving it 10 yards or further back from the end of the fairway in the flat would allow you a second shot with almost any club in the bag except 3 wood for purposes of getting it up quick enough. Please don`t confuse the previous sentence as a sexual reference. It seems that we may differ on the shot values and even so you are not alone in your disdain for the hole. I guess we just disagree. 

[Mike Sweeney]

I would love to hear your take as do what options there are on the tee shot.  In my mind any reward for taking it right over the mounds is neutralized as you are closer to the steep incline and forced to hit less club because you need to get the ball up so quickly.   I did play the back tees BTW and have not played the course up so my take is from there.

Back Back tee up top. - Pretty much over the mounds with driver, if I am right side, I go for the straight line over the high part of the hill. If I am on the left side and the steep part of the hill looms, you play to the right fairway. Not sure when you last played it, but the right fairway is a real option now and I would argue that your chances of a flatter but longer shot are on the right side.

Back tee - kind of the same but many players may need to hit 3 wood to prevent getting too close to the "end" of the fairway and against the him. Long players can go for the tongue up the hill.

Members tee - For me, I have hit driver up into the tongue once or twice with the right wind. Then a 7 iron gets you over the hill. A skilled player could in theory go for it in two.

The only eagle I heard about last week at the NCAAs was the kid from Texas who was in the lead at one point and finished top 5 hit a wedge in from the fairway for 3.

There are days when I feel like Fred and say blow it up and there are days when I make par (have never birdied 18) and I feel great to end the round at Yale with a par on 18. IMO, that is one of the things that makes Yale so compelling.

Ben,

Did you play the back tees? The yardage on the card is very deceptive and it is much more fun when you have a short iron in your hand rather than a long iron.

[Michael Ryan]

I was at Yale last Saturday for the final round of the NCAA East Regional.  I watched about 6 groups come through 18, the entire UNC-W, UVA, UCLA pairing that was second to last and the #5 players from Penn St, Kent St. and Texas that were the final pairing.  From the very back tee I can tell you that almost every player hit three wood to leave themselves short of the rise to the upper fairway.  I saw a few players try driver, 2 of whom hit pulls into the knee high rough on the slope and one who ended up in the 15 yard wide neck of faiirway that slopes up to where the fairways splits. 

I don't think the upper fairway was in play even for the longest players in the game from that back tee and heard of almost no players giving that green a run in two shots during the event.

Two coaches told me they thought it was a great 3 shot par 5, one coach just smiled when I asked him what he thought of the hole...

[Mike Cirba]

What's harder; listening to Yanni or John Tesh?

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