[Bill_McBride]

Fellas, when you read what CBM wrote about the strategy of a Road hole off the tee, how do you square that with how you're defining a Cape hole's strategy off the tee?

Sean: In the context of this discussion, how would you characterize the strategy off the tee for Hoylake 3 (nee 1)?

Mark, would anyone in his right mind try to cut across the corner of that hole at Hoylake?  It would be depressingly simple for a wonderful shot to roll and roll, until it stopped...... right up against that little berm/cop, and in the OOB!   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark, Nick, et. al.,

I think we all agree that CBM's 14th/5th hole was THE ORIGINAL Cape hole.

A hole that presented the golfer with angularity off the tee and on the approach into the green.

That principle seems rather undeniable when viewing schematics of the original hole.

If that hole was restored today, we'd say, that the restored hole is a "true" Cape Hole.

So who changed or morphed the definition or understanding of the relationship of the features and play of the hole ?

Was it convenience ?
Or a concession toward qualifying, architecturally, the revised 14th hole at NGLA, given its genesis ?

I think its fairly established that the holes at NGLA formed the basis for the American template holes that were to follow, mostly at the hands of CBM, SR & CB.

We also know that there were various iterations of the subsequent templates, hybrids, mostly caused by the site topography or a desire on the part of the club to connect their holes to the famous originals at NGLA.  That desire probably led to a very generous interpretation.

Understanding the loose application of the terms, the nomenclature became clouded.

My opinion is that you have to establish what the "true" form of the template hole is/represents.
And in the case of the "Cape" I think it's CBM's original version, the one with angularity on the drive and approach into the green where the green is guarded and mostly surrounded by water/bunkers.

All other versions would then represent hybrids and in many cases very loose interpretations to the extent that they'd be disqualified as being considered a template hole.

Interestingly enough, under my own system of classification, I have a difficult time deciding if the Redan at NGLA or the Redan at Piping Rock is the "True" Redan Template hole. 

[Bill_McBride]

Interestingly enough, under my own system of classification, I have a difficult time deciding if the Redan at NGLA or the Redan at Piping Rock is the "True" Redan Template hole. 

How about the Redan at North Berwick?   

Wouldn't that be the "True" Redan Template hole?

[Alex Miller]

If the modern definition of a Cape tee shot is an angular drive, what's the modern definition of a Road Hole tee shot?

The angular drive isn't the only aspect to the Cape hole.

I think a Road Hole tee shot is similar, though the fairway wouldn't wrap around whatever hazard there may be. The difference is in the dogleg.

Alex,

Can you help me out and describe the playing and strategy of a Road tee shot and of a Cape tee shot, and how they differ?

Thanks,
Mark

Mark,

I am no expert but I will do my best.

The road hole tee shot is originally blind, but it's known for trying to challenge a diagonal hazard in order to gain more distance, but more importantly a better angle to approach the green from. Think of 17 at TOC, the farther right you hit your drive, the better angle you have playing down the length of the green.

A cape hole tee shot by modern definition also challenges a diagonal hazard. However in this tee shot the hole is rapping itself around that hazard. The cape hole doglegs while the road hole rarely does. The strategic advantage gained from challenging the hazard on a cape hole tee shot is having a shorter shot into the green, not necessarily a better angle.

Alex

[Patrick_Mucci]

Interestingly enough, under my own system of classification, I have a difficult time deciding if the Redan at NGLA or the Redan at Piping Rock is the "True" Redan Template hole. 

How about the Redan at North Berwick?   

Wouldn't that be the "True" Redan Template hole?

Bill, I qualified my statement by confining the issue to American holes/architecture.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Shivas,

Doesn't a limited quantity increase the value of the product ?

Redans are rare, as are other true template holes, such as the Bottle, but why taint or mongrelize the architectural and playing qualities of the hole just to be more inclusive ?

Isn't that dumbing down the underlying architectural principles and playing values ?

I'd rather try to preserve and strive for "true" templates, but, at the same time accept reasonable variations due to site specific conditions/topography

[George_Bahto]

OK for all you "diagonals"

here is the Cape hole at Fishers Island - one of Raynor's best designs

you drive as close to the hazard as possible on the  tee shot in order to gain advantage - the green sits in a marsh



please don't get into the diagonal 2nd shot  

watercolor is by Charles Ferguson

[George_Bahto]

and here is the 2nd green at Yale under construction  -   the green is hanging out in mid air



Hole 2 -  Par 4 - 365 / 349 / 338 yards   "Green: natural to the right - but similar to "Cape" overall"
 

     "This is a natural green heavily bunkered on the left with a rather narrow approach on the right." Much of the green is on natural ground though along the left it has been dramatically built up and features on of the most feared bunkers on the course; a sand-pit with a depth in excess of 20 feet.  Balls missing this green further left than this bunker will fall into deeper oblivion. In general the green can be considered a "Cape setting," jutting out, seemingly into mid-air, rather than out into a body of water."  (Banks, circa 1931)

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Bahto,

I considered FI's "Cape" to be a hybid just barely eligible to be called a hybrid due to the CBM connection.

There's nothing that can be "bitten off" on the drive and for the most part there's little, if any, angularity on the approach.

Yale's 2nd does have the element of angularity in the approach, but, not in the drive, thus I'd classify it as another hybrid cape.

The original at NGLA is quite unique in its architecture and playability.

If the 17th at NGLA had the green 50-75-100 yards to the left would that be a good cape ?

[George_Bahto]

The original at NGLA is quite unique in its architecture and playability.    yes it is

If the 17th at NGLA had the green 50-75-100 yards to the left would that be a good cape ?    yes - if it was surrounded on three sides by a hazard

I've said the evolution of the hole (tee shot on a diagonal) is what it seems to have become (in many cases) today - I'm sticking what that crazy coot Macdonald said and built   (and what his guys, Raynor and Banks built as well)   

[Patrick_Mucci]

George,

In your observations, what hole built by CBM-SR-CB subsequent to NGLA comes closest to the original 14th ?

[Mark Bourgeois]

George,

Could you share with us how a Road template is defined, esp the strategy and nature of challenge off the tee?

Many thanks,
Mark

[Doug Braunsdorf]

If I could add to this, I have played Congressional many times; I have not played the Cape hole at National.  At CCC, the drive is pretty much straight--it might bend a little left--but there's no diagonal hazard to cross.  And, as Pat said, the golfer can play short and right and use the land to direct the ball onto the green.  Even if one plays to, say, the front third of the green, and it may not be evident from the aerials, but it's pretty much a straight shot.  The green really isn't oriented to where you would be coming across at a great diagonal.  Even for back hole locations, it's basically a straight shot. 
And coming from the left side of the fairway, it may be a foolhardy play to try to go at the green, as it's very narrow and coming out of the rough, much control is obviously lost.

[George_Bahto]

"Patrick" In your observations, what hole built by CBM-SR-CB subsequent to NGLA comes closest to the original 14th ?

I don't remember anything they built that one. One of the reasons I like Nationals is that even when you think your drive is perfect, you may be going thru the fairwway or ending up with a tough downhill lie to play with a short club

the 5th at Mid Ocean is a great version (- green into the water if you trim away the vegetation .... that'll give you the diagoanal)

I personally like to see shorter cape holes - under 375 yards by today's standards and those holes filled with all sorts of problems. Looks easy on the scorecard but can create a trainwreck

[Patrick_Mucci]

George,

I think the 14th fairway is one of the great fairways in golf, given the dimensions of the hole.

The undulations and runoffs for less than a near perfect drive can quickly eliminate a par.

And, as you say, the lies can be daunting even though the approach is relatively short.

[Niall C]

Mark, Nick, et. al.,

I think we all agree that CBM's 14th/5th hole was THE ORIGINAL Cape hole.

A hole that presented the golfer with angularity off the tee and on the approach into the green.

That principle seems rather undeniable when viewing schematics of the original hole.

If that hole was restored today, we'd say, that the restored hole is a "true" Cape Hole.

So who changed or morphed the definition or understanding of the relationship of the features and play of the hole ?

Was it convenience ?
Or a concession toward qualifying, architecturally, the revised 14th hole at NGLA, given its genesis ?

I think its fairly established that the holes at NGLA formed the basis for the American template holes that were to follow, mostly at the hands of CBM, SR & CB.

We also know that there were various iterations of the subsequent templates, hybrids, mostly caused by the site topography or a desire on the part of the club to connect their holes to the famous originals at NGLA.  That desire probably led to a very generous interpretation.

Understanding the loose application of the terms, the nomenclature became clouded.

My opinion is that you have to establish what the "true" form of the template hole is/represents.
And in the case of the "Cape" I think it's CBM's original version, the one with angularity on the drive and approach into the green where the green is guarded and mostly surrounded by water/bunkers.

All other versions would then represent hybrids and in many cases very loose interpretations to the extent that they'd be disqualified as being considered a template hole.

Interestingly enough, under my own system of classification, I have a difficult time deciding if the Redan at NGLA or the Redan at Piping Rock is the "True" Redan Template hole. 

Pat,

There's no doubt that CBM by his very authorship of NGLA and his subsequent writings is best known in America for template holes and defining the general characteristics of those holes however given that there were others before (and indeed after) him who built template holes in America and that they were presumably inspired by the originals therefore weren't trying to copy a CBM template at all.

Granted, the Cape Hole concept probably was a CBM original in terms of the concept of the entire hole but can there be any doubt that different elements of the design were borrowed from elsewhere, ie. angular drive over water, Machrihanish ?

As Bill McBride alludes to, the originals lie elsewhere not at NGLA or Piping Rock.

Niall

[Nick Campanelli]

"Patrick" In your observations, what hole built by CBM-SR-CB subsequent to NGLA comes closest to the original 14th ?

I don't remember anything they built that one. One of the reasons I like Nationals is that even when you think your drive is perfect, you may be going thru the fairwway or ending up with a tough downhill lie to play with a short club

George,

Do you have any aerials / sketches of the original 14th at NGLA prior to the addition of the new entry road?

Nick

[Patrick_Mucci]

Niall,

I'm not so sure that CBM's "Cape Hole" had a predeccesor in terms of it's replicated configuration requiring dual, angular shots over the same hazard.

Is the original hole at Machrihanish still intact ?
If not, do you have a schematic of the original ?

[Scott Warren]

Patrick,

I believe Niall is referring to the first hole.

(pic from Ran's review)

[Sean_A]

In CBM's definition a Road template does not need blindness and furthermore any number of challenges, including water, may stand in for the sheds.

Now that Yale's 2nd no longer is a Cape hole according to you guys, what new definition would you give it?

Also, it would appear by your definition Yale's 4th is now close enough to be called a Cape, as the green does jut out a bit.

Mark

CBM eliminated blindness from his templates because he didn't care for blindness.  It was in vogue at the time to shout down blindness, but they were all wrong.  You can quote me on the wrong part. 

Ciao

He was pkay with blindness on the Alps hole!   

Ace

Yes, but the MacRaynor school of thought also included non-blind Alps.  In fact, without having a clue as I have never seen but one Raynor, I bet that MOST of their Alps are not blind.  Mac seems to have accepted that "anything" in the ball park which recreates the strategy suits the bill.  I would strongly disagree and argue that the "mental" side of the strategy of some of these classic holes is important and that blindness points straight to that - just as the concept of a lost/hazard ball for true Cape is much more mentally taxing than crossing a playable area even if the fairway shape is the same as a true Cape.   

Mark

Hoylake's 1st is a dogleg - even for the big boys because they push the tee back.  Besides, even if one does take on OOB (and I have seen it done successfully) the reward is not having to deal with OOB for the 2nd.  The rabbit who plays safe has to cope with the same hazard twice.  The more I live and breath, the more I think this is a great opening hole.  Its wonderful that the flag is beckoning in full view from the tee.

Ciao       

[Bill_McBride]

In CBM's definition a Road template does not need blindness and furthermore any number of challenges, including water, may stand in for the sheds.

Now that Yale's 2nd no longer is a Cape hole according to you guys, what new definition would you give it?

Also, it would appear by your definition Yale's 4th is now close enough to be called a Cape, as the green does jut out a bit.

Mark

CBM eliminated blindness from his templates because he didn't care for blindness.  It was in vogue at the time to shout down blindness, but they were all wrong.  You can quote me on the wrong part. 

Ciao

He was pkay with blindness on the Alps hole!   

Ace

Yes, but the MacRaynor school of thought also included non-blind Alps.  In fact, without having a clue as I have never seen but one Raynor, I bet that MOST of their Alps are not blind.  Mac seems to have accepted that "anything" in the ball park which recreates the strategy suits the bill.  I would strongly disagree and argue that the "mental" side of the strategy of some of these classic holes is important and that blindness points straight to that - just as the concept of a lost/hazard ball for true Cape is much more mentally taxing than crossing a playable area even if the fairway shape is the same as a true Cape.   

Mark

Hoylake's 1st is a dogleg - even for the big boys because they push the tee back.  Besides, even if one does take on OOB (and I have seen it done successfully) the reward is not having to deal with OOB for the 2nd.  The rabbit who plays safe has to cope with the same hazard twice.  The more I live and breath, the more I think this is a great opening hole.  Its wonderful that the flag is beckoning in full view from the tee.

Ciao       

I would have to ask Uncle George about non-blind Alps holes.  The only two I can recall playing -- NGLA and Yale -- are blind.  If it's not blind, what's the point?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Yes, but the MacRaynor school of thought also included non-blind Alps. 

What evidence can you present that would support your above conclusion ?

In fact, without having a clue as I have never seen but one Raynor, I bet that MOST of their Alps are not blind. 

What leads you to draw that conclusion ?

Mac seems to have accepted that "anything" in the ball park which recreates the strategy suits the bill. 

What is the "strategy" you alluded to ?

And, how is it possible to recreate it without blindness ?

Hoylake's 1st is a dogleg - even for the big boys because they push the tee back.  Besides, even if one does take on OOB (and I have seen it done successfully) the reward is not having to deal with OOB for the 2nd.  The rabbit who plays safe has to cope with the same hazard twice.  The more I live and breath, the more I think this is a great opening hole.  Its wonderful that the flag is beckoning in full view from the tee.

Ciao       

[Patrick_Mucci]

There's no doubt that CBM by his very authorship of NGLA and his subsequent writings is best known in America for template holes and defining the general characteristics of those holes however given that there were others before (and indeed after) him who built template holes in America and that they were presumably inspired by the originals therefore weren't trying to copy a CBM template at all.

Granted, the Cape Hole concept probably was a CBM original in terms of the concept of the entire hole but can there be any doubt that different elements of the design were borrowed from elsewhere, ie. angular drive over water, Machrihanish ?

It appears that the angular drive over water at Machrihanish is not a threatening drive, nor does it appear to be the only drive forced over a hazard.

To state that CBM's Cape had its origins and was nothing more than the 1st at Machrihanish with some bells and whistles is more than a quantum leap of faith.  I think it's a wild stretch that I can't accept.

Especially when CBM himself doesn't cite Machrihanish or any of its holes as comprising the ideal golf course.

As Bill McBride alludes to, the originals lie elsewhere not at NGLA or Piping Rock.

When it comes to CBM's cape at NGLA, the 14th may very well be the original.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()