[Richard Choi]

Alex, I think most of us including George would agree that replacing water with sand still validates the hole strategy (especially when the original has gone through the same change).

What is in dispute is, does the fairway feature (dogleg with hazard inside) required for a "Cape Hole". If the original term came from the green feature only, then I think the answer is no.

[George_Bahto]

You could actually separate the green from the fairway in speaking about a Cape ....... 

you can have a Cape (style) green complex - often described as such by Raynor and Banks

one of the wildest example of a Cape (style) green (again, not even talking about the fairway) is described by Charles Banks in an article he wrote for Yale in which he describes the 2nd green of the Yale course as a CAPE GREEN - the huge green is sort of sitting out in mid air. Banks graduated from Yale and help build the course!

So the green can be out in water, sand, mid air or whatever, and be a Cape green complex.

I have a hard drive with me and I think it has the Yale photos - I'll try to post a photo of the second green

Now, the new version (evolution) of Cape hole - the diagonal, if you will, is now the more "accepted" definition of the cape hole - many architects - even those whose last names begin with "F" and "N" etc, occasionally call their diagonal thngs a Cape hole ...... that's what it has become, it seems

there's the original and the new version

fine with me (I'm just old fashioned)

[Patrick_Mucci]

George B, I admit I am at fault with the my previous definition as well.  Thank you for the clarification.  

If the original definition was really about the green , would the 17th at Congressional be considered a Cape even though the fairway is not set on a drastic diagonal or lined by a hazard like most other examples?  

NO, it would not be considered a Cape Hole

[Nick Campanelli]

George B, I admit I am at fault with the my previous definition as well.  Thank you for the clarification.  

If the original definition was really about the green , would the 17th at Congressional be considered a Cape even though the fairway is not set on a drastic diagonal or lined by a hazard like most other examples?  

NO, it would not be considered a Cape Hole

Why not?  

I'm as confused now as the next guy with this altered definition.  More clarification applied to existing holes please.....


This pictures dates Congressional, but it gets the point across....

[Alex Miller]

I think Pat had the same conceptions about the definition as I did.

I think Congressional's 17th or 18th or whatever that hole is considered now is a cape hole, so is the 18th at Bay Hill 

[Patrick_Mucci]

George B, I admit I am at fault with the my previous definition as well.  Thank you for the clarification.  

If the original definition was really about the green , would the 17th at Congressional be considered a Cape even though the fairway is not set on a drastic diagonal or lined by a hazard like most other examples?  

NO, it would not be considered a Cape Hole

Why not?  

Because there's no substantive angularity in the approach into the green.

This definition of a cape is new to me, and it seems others as well.  

Does the definition not hold?

I don't think it does, otherwise every green with bunkers on three sides would be a "cape" hole.

[Bill_McBride]

Was Ran incorrect when he described Cuscowilla's 10th hole as "[p]erhaps the finest ‘Cape’ hole built since the one at Mid-Ocean"?  There is water on the right side of the green at Cuscowilla, and it's the same water that you have to carry diagonally from the tee box, but the green certainly isn't surrounded on several sides by the water. 

It has the green perched up with hazard right and major fall off behind and right, so I would think it's definitely a capital "C" Cape hole.

I think the best examples - like #5 at Mid Ocean pictured above, and the original #14 at NGLA, feature both diagonal drive over major trouble AND the Cape green complexes.

[Alex Miller]

Was Ran incorrect when he described Cuscowilla's 10th hole as "[p]erhaps the finest ‘Cape’ hole built since the one at Mid-Ocean"?  There is water on the right side of the green at Cuscowilla, and it's the same water that you have to carry diagonally from the tee box, but the green certainly isn't surrounded on several sides by the water. 

It has the green perched up with hazard right and major fall off behind and right, so I would think it's definitely a capital "C" Cape hole.

I think the best examples - like #5 at Mid Ocean pictured above, and the original #14 at NGLA, feature both diagonal drive over major trouble AND the Cape green complexes.

So Bill, you like Patrick and I agree that the best and most recognized form of the cape hole features the diagonal drive as well. I think that definitions evolve over time, and while C.B. Macdonald didn't intend it, a cape hole is defined by both shots, not just the approach

[Patrick_Mucci]

Alex,

I'm not so sure about that.

If you look at the schematics of the original "Cape" at NGLA, both the drive and the approach shots were forced to deal with substantive angularity.

I don't see how a relatively straight hole forces one to deal with angularity on the drive and/or the approach.

While the 14th at NGLA has had the green moved, the golfer still has to deal with the angles on his drive and/or approach.
Bunkers have replaced a good deal of the water, but a combination of water and expansive bunkers, not sprinkled bunkers retain some of the original flavor of the hole.

What's not revealed in the aerial of the 17/18th hole at Congressional is the topography that allows the golfer to play short and right, allowing the land to direct the ball onto the green.

As to the 18th at Bay Hill, I hope your  indicated your true views

[Bill_McBride]

Was Ran incorrect when he described Cuscowilla's 10th hole as "[p]erhaps the finest ‘Cape’ hole built since the one at Mid-Ocean"?  There is water on the right side of the green at Cuscowilla, and it's the same water that you have to carry diagonally from the tee box, but the green certainly isn't surrounded on several sides by the water. 

It has the green perched up with hazard right and major fall off behind and right, so I would think it's definitely a capital "C" Cape hole.

I think the best examples - like #5 at Mid Ocean pictured above, and the original #14 at NGLA, feature both diagonal drive over major trouble AND the Cape green complexes.

So Bill, you like Patrick and I agree that the best and most recognized form of the cape hole features the diagonal drive as well. I think that definitions evolve over time, and while C.B. Macdonald didn't intend it, a cape hole is defined by both shots, not just the approach

Yes.  That's why I think neither old #17 at Congressional nor your original dogleg are Cape holes.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Was Ran incorrect when he described Cuscowilla's 10th hole as "[p]erhaps the finest ‘Cape’ hole built since the one at Mid-Ocean"?  There is water on the right side of the green at Cuscowilla, and it's the same water that you have to carry diagonally from the tee box, but the green certainly isn't surrounded on several sides by the water. 

It has the green perched up with hazard right and major fall off behind and right, so I would think it's definitely a capital "C" Cape hole.

I think the best examples - like #5 at Mid Ocean pictured above, and the original #14 at NGLA, feature both diagonal drive over major trouble AND the Cape green complexes.

So Bill, you like Patrick and I agree that the best and most recognized form of the cape hole features the diagonal drive as well. I think that definitions evolve over time, and while C.B. Macdonald didn't intend it, a cape hole is defined by both shots, not just the approach

No.  Just look at Yale 2, a relatively straight hole with no through-the-green hazard on the left that manages to present the fundamental challenge of a Cape by angling and offsetting the green.  The approach and green are as a cobra rearing its head to strike.

George Bahto will fill us in but I would not call a hole a Cape simply because it has a hazard down the side of some angle.  That is irrelevant to the definition of a Cape.

Rather, judging by the long-standing mislabeling of Yale 4 that Bahto cleared up, such a hole more properly may be defined as a Road hole, with the water playing the role of the sheds.

Thus it is possible for a hole to combine the elements of Road and Cape, which I think is what many of you are trying to articulate.

[Nick Campanelli]

I think we can all agree with the modern definition of a Cape (Angular Drive + Angular Approach) and its evolution.  McDonald's original definition is whats triggering everyone's questions regarding what does and doesn't classify as a cape.      

I stood on the 11th tee at Cape Arundel in Maine two weeks ago and thought to myself "here is Cape Arundel's Cape."  The example in Maine fits the generic profile of the diagonal drive over a hazard.  If the hole were defined by the green, the hole would not classify as a cape.  The green is a semi-punchbowl set into a hill right with a hidden, deep trap left.  In Modern terms, this is a cape.  By early standards, the hole is not.

Cape Arundel 11  |  Diagonal Drive Across Hazard


Cape Arundel 11  |  Approach to Green    


Cape Arundel 11  |  Semi-Punchbowl Green

[Alex Miller]

I think we can all agree with the modern definition of a Cape (Angular Drive + Angular Approach) and its evolution.  McDonald's original definition is whats triggering everyone's questions regarding what does and doesn't classify as a cape.      

I stood on the 11th tee at Cape Arundel in Maine two weeks ago and thought to myself "here is Cape Arundel's Cape."  The example in Maine fits the generic profile of the diagonal drive over a hazard.  If the hole were defined by the green, the hole would not classify as a cape.  The green is a semi-punchbowl set into a hill right with a hidden, deep trap left.  In Modern terms, this is a cape.  By early standards, the hole is not.

Cape Arundel 11  |  Diagonal Drive Across Hazard


Cape Arundel 11  |  Approach to Green    


Cape Arundel 11  |  Semi-Punchbowl Green

Sorry Nick.

I can't agree to that because it's wrong. Where is the angle in the approach? Your "cape hole" that you presented just has a diagonal drive. A cape hole also has the same hazard your forced to contend with on the tee challenge your approach.

Cape = (Angular Drive + Angular Approach) / The Same Hazard on the Inside of the Dogleg.

Now that's math! (Read the divided sign as "over)

[Mark Bourgeois]

If the modern definition of a Cape tee shot is an angular drive, what's the modern definition of a Road Hole tee shot?

[Alex Miller]

If the modern definition of a Cape tee shot is an angular drive, what's the modern definition of a Road Hole tee shot?

The angular drive isn't the only aspect to the Cape hole.

I think a Road Hole tee shot is similar, though the fairway wouldn't wrap around whatever hazard there may be. The difference is in the dogleg.

[Sean_A]

Put me in the camp of angular drive and approach and preferrably with water as the hazard if we are talking about a Cape hole.  Its a double duty hole.  I also think the water is important because it creates a do or die hole - very different from sand as the hazard.

There really isn't much difference between the strategy of a Cape drive and Road Hole drive except for the ever present feature of blindness for the Road Hole if the player is aggressive.  Heck, even Dr Mac used blindness on his Road Hole at W-s-M!  To me, CBM takes out blindness as a key ingredient of at least two (maybe three) templates which doesn't effectively change the strategy, but it does change the hole dramatically and more is the pity blindness is no longer in vogue - perhaps the biggest mistake the likes of CBM, Colt and Dr Mac ever committed.  So, I can't buy the argument that the strategy is what should determine the template.  Both strategy and features are important.  

Ciao

 

[Mark Bourgeois]

In CBM's definition a Road template does not need blindness and furthermore any number of challenges, including water, may stand in for the sheds.

Now that Yale's 2nd no longer is a Cape hole according to you guys, what new definition would you give it?

Also, it would appear by your definition Yale's 4th is now close enough to be called a Cape, as the green does jut out a bit.

[Cliff Hamm]

Seems to me that the best reference would be Cape green and Cape hole in order to differentiate.

[Mark Bourgeois]

If the modern definition of a Cape tee shot is an angular drive, what's the modern definition of a Road Hole tee shot?

The angular drive isn't the only aspect to the Cape hole.

I think a Road Hole tee shot is similar, though the fairway wouldn't wrap around whatever hazard there may be. The difference is in the dogleg.

Alex,

Can you help me out and describe the playing and strategy of a Road tee shot and of a Cape tee shot, and how they differ?

Thanks,
Mark

[Sean_A]

In CBM's definition a Road template does not need blindness and furthermore any number of challenges, including water, may stand in for the sheds.

Now that Yale's 2nd no longer is a Cape hole according to you guys, what new definition would you give it?

Also, it would appear by your definition Yale's 4th is now close enough to be called a Cape, as the green does jut out a bit.

Mark

CBM eliminated blindness from his templates because he didn't care for blindness.  It was in vogue at the time to shout down blindness, but they were all wrong.  You can quote me on the wrong part. 

Ciao

[Bill_McBride]

In CBM's definition a Road template does not need blindness and furthermore any number of challenges, including water, may stand in for the sheds.

Now that Yale's 2nd no longer is a Cape hole according to you guys, what new definition would you give it?

Also, it would appear by your definition Yale's 4th is now close enough to be called a Cape, as the green does jut out a bit.

Mark

CBM eliminated blindness from his templates because he didn't care for blindness.  It was in vogue at the time to shout down blindness, but they were all wrong.  You can quote me on the wrong part. 

Ciao

He was pkay with blindness on the Alps hole!   

[Nick Campanelli]

" If the hole were defined by the green, the hole would not classify as a cape."

Where is the angle in the approach? Your "cape hole" that you presented just has a diagonal drive. A cape hole also has the same hazard your forced to contend with on the tee challenge your approach.

I'm pretty sure I stated that the green complex in the above example does not lend itself to the character of a cape. 

[Mike Hendren]

Think of Cape Cod.  One tees off in Barnstable, drives toward Truro and approaches the green at Provincetown.

There you go.

Mike

[Nick Campanelli]

Think of Cape Cod.  One tees off in Barnstable, drives toward Truro and approaches the green at Provincetown.

88,067yd, Par 800.  I like it! (Measurement taken along Route 6)

[Mark Bourgeois]

Fellas, when you read what CBM wrote about the strategy of a Road hole off the tee, how do you square that with how you're defining a Cape hole's strategy off the tee?

Sean: In the context of this discussion, how would you characterize the strategy off the tee for Hoylake 3 (nee 1)?

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