[Sean Leary]

I think 16 is much improved since they cleared out the area left. Anyone have before and after pics?

[Ross Waldorf]

Sean:

I've heard that said several times. I didn't play it in its original form -- am I correct in my understanding that the area long and left used to be lost ball territory? If so, I can understand the criticism. One of the things I think is great about the hole is that downwind (and I always go in September, so that's the only wind I've played) you have to choose your line carefully, and one of the consequences of taking a more conservative line is that if you hit it too far the ball goes down into that low area. You can probably find your ball, and might have a perfectly good lie, but you have to hit that delicate shot toward the green in a serious crosswind from a blind position, which is no bargain. A lost ball back there would be pretty annoying.

I second the request for before/after pix, if anybody's got 'em.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Geeze, I wonder how many architects would take the job to build course #1 if they knew they would be followed by Doak, C&C and "CB Macdonald"...

Please, you can't possibly be serious.

[Kevin Pallier]

It was put to me last weekend when I asked about Bandon that Bandon Dunes is the "most British" of the courses there. What say those who have played both at Bandon and in GB&I?

Scott

I would have thought OM holds that mantle given most holes there are takes on GB&I holes ?


To answer the original Q:

The unnatural looking mounding and routing at BD is it's biggest drawback for mine. It certainly doesn't flow as well as the other Bandon courses.

Can also someone tell me why they have rough grass line the bunkers on the first hole and no where else on the course that I could think of ?

[Steve Kline]

The day I played 16 it was downwind or calm.  In those conditions, I thought it was the best and most memorable hole at Bandon Dunes.  How do people like it into a headwind?

At the US Mid Am I played it into a 25-30 wind that was into us and towards the ocean- yikes! I hit a good drive but had no hope of getting to the second level of the fairway. I hit driver to make sure I got it over the first chasm before the first fairway. From there I had about 125-135 yards - blind to a pin in the front right. I hit a punch 5 iron but the wind rode into the hazard on the right but it was on sand and playable. Got up and down for par. All in all - I found it to be tremendous fun!!! The two other days I played it with no wind. I think it is the best hole on the course - lots of options, risk/reward, totally unique.

[JESII]

Rob:  Our basic checklist:

Bandon Dunes had returning nines, so we didn't need to.

Bandon Dunes was long, so Pacific Dunes could stay shorter.  (At Old Mac we went back to longer and wider.)

Bandon Dunes had big greens, so we would stay with smaller greens.  (Old Mac = huge.)

Bandon Dunes had grass-faced bunkers, so we went with the blowouts.  (Old Mac = eclectic.)

Bandon Dunes opened up a lot of ground, so we tried to keep more of the existing vegetation (gorse, pines, dune grass) and keep a more intimate feeling.  (Old Mac = wide open.)

Bandon Dunes had a lot of holes which played up to the ocean, so we tried to have more holes playing parallel with it.  (Old Mac = up into the dunes at the sea.)

Tom,

Is this serious? Were you really that concious of creating differences? Or is some of it observation in hindsight?

Jim:  100% serious.  We didn't think anyone would appreciate it if we said we were trying to build a course better than Bandon Dunes, so we aimed for "different, and just as good".  And with that mission statement, we left ourselves some room to overachieve.

Tom,

Thanks...it's very amazing to me that so much would have been sort of pre-determined or, rather, created as a reaction to something else and the result is a course is regarded as being right in the top couple built in the last 50 years.

[Adam Clayman]

Sure.  I'm a sucker for an ocean view and a cliffside hole.   

 

Many don't even realize that it is tugging at their primordial brain.

[Dan Herrmann]

Best ocean view at BD - back of the back tee on #17.  It's not in play, but I remember it as being a great view.

[Mark Saltzman]

Reading through the 30+ posts, I read two main criticisms

1) The course does not look as natural as PD and BT (OM had not yet opened)

2) 9 and 18 are dull.

And yet, on another thread, a poster would not play BD even once in ten rounds at the resort.

Having read this site for a few years, there is a general consensus that BD is the clear-cut no. 4 at the resort (admittedly, this is usually with the caveat that all 4 are excellent).

So, for those that have BD as 'not worth playing,' or even just 4th among greatness, why do you place it there?

[Ronald Montesano]

Mark,
To me it is patently obvious that BD has to come in at #4, if one is to rank them. I suspect that, had TD built PD first (or CC build BT first), DMK would have done things differently at BD.

I once told our son (our oldest) that I would be a better father for the younger ones than for him. He bristled, then listened as I explained why. I would learn from him and his sister (4 years younger) and so forth. I didn't understand that the youngest would learn from the older ones, too, making me look better than I am!

Back to the golf. The 2nd course comes in, sees the first and says "we need to do things better." It was TDs first huge chance and he wasn't going to botch it. CC would have built an amazing course there, too. I suspect DMK would have built a better course on the PD land than the BD land had he gone second, although I don't think it would have been as good as PD is.

By the time they got to OM, the whole coterie (Brad Kline's term) was in a rarefied place. Mike Keiser knew way more about building courses than he did when he and DMK worked on the first one together.

BD has weak holes. I don't think the other three courses do (and I haven't seen OM yet.) It's the case of a kid being stuck in advanced classes with three savants that are going off to MIT, Berkeley and Princeton...the 4th kid will do just fine at Wake or Vandy or Rice, but people somehow can't help but judge her/him based on the other schools.

[Pete_Pittock]

Think I remember that touring pros most liked Royal Birkdale as the fairest (or best?) courses on The Open rota. I think that Bandon Dunes fits that description best at the resort. The ball doesn't make very many berserk bounces. Few speed slots. Fairly open for the driver, the exceptions being 4, 5 and 16. Weak 5s, strong 3s when the wind is up

My preference list at the resort has Bandon Dunes 4th. Although it is very good, it is more similar with courses at other resorts than its brethren. I don't travel to play golf, I travel to golf on courses which trend to the unique end of the scale.  

[William_G]

Mark,

I think folks love to place something first and last, even when you are splitting hairs, humanity and all it's wisdom demands winners and losers, LOL

If I only had one round with my family left to play at Bandon it would be at Bandon Dunes

The fascinating thing to consider however is what would be your ideal routing to play if you could play any set of holes within the confines of BD, PD, and OM...say play 1-7 at BD...play 8-14 at PD...7-9, 13-18 at OM.    

FUN

[Tom_Doak]

The fascinating thing to consider however is what would be your ideal routing to play if you could play any set of holes within the confines of BD, PD, and OM...say play 1-7 at BD...play 8-14 at PD...7-9, 13-18 at OM.    

FUN

The coolest challenge would be to play from end to end ... you could start at the 16th tee on Old Macdonald (or the 17th might be even more fun) and wind up at the 14th green at Bandon Trails.  The leap from 17 tee at Bandon Dunes over to The Preserve would be easier for your golf ball than for the golfer.

Or, if you don't want to wind up on that particular green at Trails, in the winter (when it's not into the wind) you could start on the 15th tee at Trails and play to the 15th or 16th green at Old Mac.

They should have a contest someday to see who can do this in the fewest strokes.

P.S. The gap is just a bit too far to keep going up to The Sheep Ranch, though there would be nothing cooler than finishing out on Five Mile Point.

[William_G]

sorry Tom, I like my idea better, LOL

[Ari Techner]

For me its about the lack of interest in the greens compared to the other courses and the extreme width of some of the fairways.  I agree with Ronald that BD would be a little different if it wasnt the first course.  When building BD Mr. Kaiser still wasnt sure if the whole concept would work and I believe was extra concerned with making it playable and enjoyable.  Thus the more flat greens and extremely wide fairways.  I enjoy BD but spent ALOT of time at the resort when I lived in OR and would have put it decidedly 3rd before Old Mac. (which I only played once before I moved and before it was totally grown in so I still dont feel comfortable in ranking it compared to the other 3)

[William_G]

For me its about the lack of interest in the greens compared to the other courses and the extreme width of some of the fairways.  I agree with Ronald that BD would be a little different if it wasnt the first course.  When building BD Mr. Kaiser still wasnt sure if the whole concept would work and I believe was extra concerned with making it playable and enjoyable.  Thus the more flat greens and extremely wide fairways.  I enjoy BD but spent ALOT of time at the resort when I lived in OR and would have put it decidedly 3rd before Old Mac. (which I only played once before I moved and before it was totally grown in so I still dont feel comfortable in ranking it compared to the other 3)

Hey Ari, I'm good with playable and enjoyable, LOL

this is so splitting hairs

FUN

[Ari Techner]

For me its about the lack of interest in the greens compared to the other courses and the extreme width of some of the fairways.  I agree with Ronald that BD would be a little different if it wasnt the first course.  When building BD Mr. Kaiser still wasnt sure if the whole concept would work and I believe was extra concerned with making it playable and enjoyable.  Thus the more flat greens and extremely wide fairways.  I enjoy BD but spent ALOT of time at the resort when I lived in OR and would have put it decidedly 3rd before Old Mac. (which I only played once before I moved and before it was totally grown in so I still dont feel comfortable in ranking it compared to the other 3)

Hey Ari, I'm good with playable and enjoyable, LOL

this is so splitting hairs

FUN

No argument here.  I think it was one of many brilliant decisions made by Mr. Kaiser in building Bandon.  You need to have the course be playable for the every day golfer to have them want to return.  Without them returning there is no resort.  I have heard many say that they felt that Pacific or Trails was too hard in a strong wind.  Bandon is playable in pretty much any strength wind.  As a low handicapper I greatly prefer Pacific especially and played it 7 or more times out of 10 when I was at the resort.  When I had my dad or other mid or high handicappers there they all enjoyed Bandon as much as any other even if they agreed that Paficic was "better".

[Jay Mickle]

The superior golf at Bandon was only exceeded by the 5+ star customer service. From hello to goodby you always felt that they were there only to make your experience all it could be.
Upon arrival Shoe greeted me like an old friend though I hadn't been there in 2 years. Great record keeping, great memory, doesn't matter. Makes for a great start for a memorable trip.

[William_G]

Ari, I hope we get to play together at Bandon someday or at Eugene.

No doubt Mr. Keiser has/had the retail golfer in mind at all the courses as Trails has been made easier/more playable at almost every hole, and Pacific's greens are milder than a typical Doak private course. and at Old Mac you can hit it anywhere, almost.

So what you are saying is that the better the golfer the less they like Bandon Dunes and the more they like Pacific and that you are the low handicapper?

 

[Michael George]

Mark:

I agree fully with William.  Each course at Bandon provides a different experience, making it very difficult to rank them.  

What I like about Bandon Dunes is that it is possibly the most playable course at the resort.  It is extremely wide and the greens are more receptive (ie. easier) than others.  It is the perfect course to play a round with your dad or son due to its playability.  I think higher handicappers typically enjoy Bandon Dunes.

What I don't like about Bandon Dunes is that it is a course of 2 extremes.  Some of the best holes at the resort and some of the worst are on Bandon Dunes.  The stretches from 4-6 and 15-17 are simply incredible.  16 may be my favorite golf hole that I have ever played.  However, I think 1-2 is the worst start at the resort.  I think 8-10 is pretty average and 18 is a disappointment (can someone please explain why the green is not along the gulley?)

[Jon Wiggett]

I have never been to Bandon but hope to one day. I get the feeling that BD gets so little love here to a large extent due to the GCA who did it. There is very little appreciation for DMK on this site though I am not sure why.

Jon

[Terry Lavin]

I have never been to Bandon but hope to one day. I get the feeling that BD gets so little love here to a large extent due to the GCA who did it. There is very little appreciation for DMK on this site though I am not sure why.

Jon

I'm sure that is part of this conundrum, but I think the major factor is that the first course at the resort was probably built in the most conservative fashion.  There are many reasons for this sort of planning, but mainly, I think Mike Keiser didn't want to give great license to the first architect because he had no interest in scaring away any people or turning off the early raters.  There was an earlier comment to the effect that the greens are pretty uninspiring at BD compared to the other three.  That's quite true; methinks that Mike got more and more comfortable with taking chances as the resort became more successful and kept growing.  Having a course as great as BD as the "worst" course on the resort is the kind of problem that every resort would love to have, Pebble Beach and Pinehurst included.

[Jud_T]

Mark,

I'm one of the guys who wouldn't play BT out of 10 rounds.  I'd play it once if forced to by playing companions who hadn't played it before.  There's a number of factors.  1: It's the hardest of the 3 courses-  71.7/139 from the greens.  2:  There are several weak holes  3:  The other 3 courses are simply that good that I'd rather not miss a single extra round on any of 'em for BD. 4.  It's just not as much fun for me.  I guess I could play the white tees at 5700, but that's still a 133 slope and it's tough to get a foursome of guys paying $235 for a round of golf to move up that much.  5.  It's $235 a round, why wouldn't I want to max out quality/dollar?  If I personally have BD as a 7 and the other 3 as 8's, 9's and 10's?  6.  It's hard to the ocean.  When I've gone I try to get afternoon rounds on 36 hole days at Trails to get away from the summer winds a bit.  That would mean sacrificing a round at either OM or PD in the morning, something I'm not willing to do as my 2 favorites.  Granted, next time I'd probably go in the shoulder season so this may be less of an issue.  7.  I feel BD gets a bit overrated due to it's place in modern GCA history and it's location at the property.  Mind you if BD were next door, it would be the best thing since sliced bread.  It's just amongst VERY tough competition.

[John Cowden]

Bandon was a much better course in its first years before the resort began its gorse-and fescue eradication campaign.  For reasons I can only ascribe to improved pace of play, i,e., $,  DMK's brilliant design has been horribly compromised.  It's a shame, and simply disingenuous of the resort to defend itself by claiming "the gorse was taking over".   Holes described here as "weak" had much higher shot values and required a more strategic, thinking-golfer's approach.  There was also an enhanced, otherworldly sense of isolation that has been lost, as well as many wonderful "wow" moments.  It's simply not the same course, not as high a quality design as it once was, and not as much fun.  But it's still pretty damn good.  

[Will MacEwen]

Bandon was a much better course in its first years before the resort began its gorse-and fescue eradication campaign.  For reasons I can only ascribe to improved pace of play, i,e., $,  DMK's brilliant design has been horribly compromised.  It's a shame, and simply disingenuous of the resort to defend itself by claiming "the gorse was taking over".   Holes described here as "weak" had much higher shot values and required a more strategic, thinking-golfer's approach.  There was also an enhanced, otherworldly sense of isolation that has been lost, as well as many wonderful "wow" moments.  It's simply not the same course, not as high a quality design as it once was, and not as much fun.  But it's still pretty damn good.  

I also find that they usually have a handful of tees bumped forward, so the course does not play to the scorecard length.

I have mentioned several times on here that I think 17 has lost some teeth.  It used to play longer and tougher.

In fairness to the resort, I have been told that there was a concerted effort to make BD the most playable of the courses on site.

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