Worst green I've seen -- #4 at Spyglass

[THuckaby2]

That is a very misleading picture, Carlyle.  But it does illustrate the front pin that Rick got... In any case that pic though really doesn't do the green justice.

TH

[TEPaul]

Chipoat asked;

"I live in Manhattan.  What's a gunny sack and what's a State Fair?"

Chip:

You are a real New Yorker, aren't you? I ask this with total respect, particularly since I used to live in Manhattan too once, but, do you or can you drive a car?

The only reason I ask is I had a wonderful girlfriend once, for years, who was a real true New Yorker--so much so in fact that for the first year or so I never really knew if she drove or could drive a car, since she never did that I knew of, living the way she did in NYC.

Her father was a Federal judge and they had a house on Park and one on the south shore of LI and after a year or so I found out. One day she called up and got a car brought around out of a garage and she got behind the wheel and took off like a bat out of hell. It was incredible--she appeared to have no sense at all of what was going on around her.

I mean, Chip, I grew up in Daytona Beach and the everlastingly famous Fireball Roberts was a good friend and I have nerves of steel on the road but this was something different. This girl was ten times crazier than the wildest Mexican taxi driver (in Mexico City that is).

So after about ten blocks in the city I said; "Whoa Maggie, pull this car over and I'm driiving to LI"--and she did. I asked her how in hell she ever got a license and she said that was a long story. I asked her how often did she drive a car and she said maybe once every five years or so.

So I'm asking you again, Chip--as a real true New Yorker who doesn't know what a gunny sack or a state fair is, both of which are basically SOP to us country mice---do you or do you not drive a car?

[Golfinc]

Don't feel bad, I too got the dreaded front pin placement at Spy a couple of summers ago. I hit what I thought was a perfect little draw only to have a 50 foot putt.

In general, I thought Spyglass was a wonderful course and a true "championship" track. It plays tighter, longer and harder than I ever imagined.

My only complaint, like a lot of others I'm sure, was that after the opening seaside holes, the course takes on a completely different character once in the forest. I kept thinking about how great it would be to have 18 seaside holes like the opening ones, and 18 forest holes. Two amazing golf courses.

[ian]

Have things changed, because I thought the fairway went all the way to the green. Carlyle's photos left me confused, as if I lost my memory.

[TEPaul]

Bob Huntley said to Rich Goodale"

"I shall buy myself a gin and tonic and send you the tab. Thanks."

Bob;

What a terrific idea. Could you post his address on here so the whole Internet world of Golfclubatlas.com can do the same?

[Tim_Weiman]

Rick:

I've played Spyglass about five times and found that I enjoyed #4 more each time I played it. Something tells me that my first reaction was similiar to yours. I had a front pin location and found my approach came to rest at the other end of the green. Three putts later I was a little frustrated because I felt both my tee shot and approach shot were pretty good.

In subsequent rounds, I found that trying to hit just the right shots was a lot of fun. Mike Benham is exactly right that trying to fly the ball right onto the green makes no sense. A couple times I went for a low seven iron trying to bounce it in from about twenty yards short, but I still didn't quite pull of the shot. So, I went with a revised plan of trying to land a nine iron maybe five to ten yards short hoping it would dribble on. I think I got it just right one time. What a thrill.

In the end I think RTJ built a really good hole. Though the fairway is quite wide, you really need to be disciplined about placing your tee shot. Certain angles - e.g., a pulled tee shot - don't set you up very well for the approach.

As for the approach itself, my only criticism might be that this hole might work better at a private club where members get to know the hole before taking on the really fun challenge of solving its puzzle. For a resort course where many people play it only once, folks may come away with the feeling you expressed and I initially felt.

[ChipOat]

Dan Kelly & Tom Paul:

That was actually a (hopefully) humorous post that was a partial antidote to a tough day.

I spent the first 6 years of my life on a farm about 45 miles west of Philadelphia and could, in fact, milk a cow before I could ride a bike.  I also drove a tractor long before I got behind the wheel of a car.

Started playing golf when my mother stopped riding horses.  Saw the bright city lights during college and said to myself, "this beats milking cows".  Almost 30 years (and 2 bull markets) later, the rest is history.

In a couple of prior lives, I have been to several different state fairs under the guise of business development/client service.  Clearly, I should have made the Minnesota event as big a priority as playing Interlachen (which I enjoyed but not as much as butter busts).

I drive a car all the time to get to the golf course (on the South Shore) and my wife's name is Maggie.  She's a pretty good driver, though.

How did we get here from Spyglass Hill?

[Dan Kelly]

I spent the first 6 years of my life on a farm about 45 miles west of Philadelphia and could, in fact, milk a cow before I could ride a bike.  I also drove a tractor long before I got behind the wheel of a car.

Started playing golf when my mother stopped riding horses.  Saw the bright city lights during college and said to myself, "this beats milking cows".  Almost 30 years (and 2 bull markets) later, the rest is history.

So, if I'm reading this correctly:

First, you learned to milk a cow.

Then, you learned to milk a bull!

And in between, you learned to ... steer!

Am I detecting a pattern here?

Hmmm. What sort of "chip" is that in your name,
anyway?

Humorously (hopefully) yrs.,
Dan

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

The front pin placements are hard but one has to bounce it in and sometimes, depending on the wind,actually use the bank to stop it. The University club in Baton Rouge built the reverse of this hole with a slightly less severe green tilt. I like the Spyglass version better.

[John_Conley]

True stories about the Minnesota State Fair

* It is always billed as the Biggest State Fair, a claim shared by Texas and some other states.
* The Dairy Farmers serve all-you-can-drink milk for a quarter and serve it so cold I'm betting you couldn't down more than two dixie cups.
* It used to be promoted with a chanting jingle that went "Our State Fair is a Great State Fair" as if attendance was somehow dependent upon having a better Fair than other states.  Duh!  People will go to the Minnesota State Fair if it were the worst of all 50 states just because it's the closest.
* With half of the state's population in the Twins, and almost no reason for that half to leave them, the annual "Get Together" is a celebration of all things hick - a chance for city dwellers to see how the other half lives.  4H, FFA, implement shows, butter queens, and a week of concerts... all country in a state that spawned Bob Dylan, Prince, and Soul Asylum.
* Food of choice?  Cheese Curds, a salty delicacy of beer-battered and deep-fried mozzarella balls only seen in Minnesota and Wisconsin.
* The allusion to the #4 green at Spyglass is "The Giant Slide" - an attraction where a nominal fee lets you borrow a burlap bag and slide down a big yellow wave complete with lanes for about 20 seconds.

I've always said that Minnesotans would support anything.  The State Fair proves it.

[Jeff Goldman]

Tiger_Bernhardt is right.  With my usual ballflight about 6 feet above ground, I boinked a seven iron off the hill on the right, and it stopped about 6-10 feet from the front pin on #4.  Of course, the guy I played with hit it in the hill a couple feet left of me, stayed there and spent the better part of the day fighting the iceplant.  Oops.

Jeff Goldman

[A_Clay_Man]

Surely the comments above about the 4th hole at Spy show that there are many ways to play this hole and many mis-interpretations of what people thought were "good" shots.

To me, somewhere in there, is the essence of what makes "great" golf.

In the second picture posted on this thread (the one that shows the front pin with the houses in background) I want to point out for those who've never been what I found to be the Best way to attack this green. Look at that picture and on almost the same line as the flag you can see the slight rise before the fall that lies mid green on the right side. This hump is the spot where you want to land your approach to a back pin. Under normal conditions (soft) the green holds almost everything except a shot that lands on the downslope past middle. Under firm conditions the big mound which gaurds the right bunker can be used as a kickplate to bump your ball and because of the gunsight aspect the balls tendancy is to stay on the green.

I could go on and on which is evidence in itself of what a great hole this truely is.

[Jeff_McDowell]

The MN state fair and Scotland are the only places I know where you can get deep fried pizza and deep fried candy bars. Either MN is higher culture than we think, or Scotland is full of hicks.

Now if the Scots would start saying "Uff-da"...

[Rick Shefchik]

I know Rich would like to see me keep fighting this point, but I'm going to give in. Dan has it right -- it's not the worst green I've seen, but the first 10 feet of that green is one of the worst places I've seen for a hole location. Otherwise, I like #4 very much as a golf hole, and the rest of the green is fine.

As I recall, the fairway now extends all the way to the green, unlike the photo posted by Carlyle Rood. Allowing for a ball to roll onto the green is the only way I can imagine to get at a front hole location on this green -- and at that, I'd guess 8 times out of ten your ball is going to be moving too fast to avoid ending up 40 feet away.

We may have a maintenance meld issue here -- if the green speed were a little slower (as slow as it probably was when the course opened in 1966), the front hole location would be more useable. But like a couple of the greens I saw at Pasatiempo on my recent trip (#8, #16), I think #4 is playing too fast now for the contour the architect wanted -- at least, too fast for that front position. I completely agree that you've got to bounce or roll it in there, but if a moving ball won't stop, I just don't think it works.

[THuckaby2]

Rick - I did tour and play Spyglass on Monday, and you are 100% correct that the front part of that green is an awful place to put a pin... To compound the countour issue, it also can't be more than 10-15 FEET wide right in the front tongue... I remain amazed you got a pin there.  That sucks.

The pin for us was about 10 feet past the end of the "neck", on the top level, and was no bargain but was at least doable.

What continues to astound me about this great golf hole is that they have the last 75 yards before the green cut as 2-3" rough!  Talk about eliminating options... the wonderful green is screaming out for creative running shots to be played into it, but the maintenance practice takes this away.  To me it's very sad...

BTW, the course as a whole remains pretty damn great.  If all courses in MN are like the forest holes at Cypress, I want to move east...  

TH

[Rick Shefchik]

Tom -- I greatly appreciate the update (and a hint of vindication that I wasn't the biggest whiner on this site.)

I would never claim all the Minnesota courses are as good as 6-18 as Spyglass, but there are a few that can compete. It's got that up-north feel...

How were the Spyglass fairways?

[THuckaby2]

I was just giving you a hard time with the MN comment, Rick.  No hassles.    You're right - 6-18 at Spyglass aren't what make that course "special", although there are several damn fine golf holes in that mix.

The fairways were in fine shape Monday - aeration marks were still there a bit, but they were not very noticeable and in any case the fairways - and the GREENS - were FAR firmer than I remembered them ever being at this course... Pretty tough to do in that semi-rainforest climate....

TH

[Adam Clayman]

After reading Low's principles, specifically #7 on that list, that describes the ideal green, I couldn't help but think  of #4 at The Glass. It fit's the description almost perfectly. No wonder it is considered one of RTJ's best. 

[astavrides]

After reading Low's principles, specifically #7 on that list, that describes the ideal green, I couldn't help but think  of #4 at The Glass. It fit's the description almost perfectly. No wonder it is considered one of RTJ's best.

It took you 16.5 years to come up with that? ;-)

[Adam Clayman]

No. It took 3 days.


My first thought was #13 at Sand Hills. That took about 3 mins. But it took 16.5 years to see a list of Low's principles, thanks to Bob Crosby's interview on the Fried Egg, and Steven Biehl who posted the list.

[Kalen Braley]

Nothing like reading a good old timey GCA thread...back when snark was a perfected art form.

P.S.  Has the dilemma been resolved?  Is #4 one of the worst or best?  Either way one helluva unique green...

[Pat Alpaugh]

I thought it was a terrific green site.  If you hit a decent tee shot you should be coming in with a relatively short iron. 

[Niall C]

I have to say one of the highlights of the round, and I happened to butcher that particular hole. Overall I thought the greens were pretty bland from what I can remember and number 4 was a glaring exception to that.


Niall

[Adam Clayman]

Niall, Initially butchering the hole is an imperative to learning it. I can't tell you how many times it took me to play the hole with ease. With so many kick plates available, I can't really see the criticism....


Apparently, The subjective argument that a front pin is terrible, speaks to the creativity of the player that can't do anything but aerial assault.


Sad to hear the greens didn't shine. They use to be the best aspect of the design.

[Matt_Cohn]

Overall I thought the greens were pretty bland from what I can remember
Niall

As I noted in another thread recently, I wildly disagree with this.