Will Doak grumble if Old Mac is viewed as his best work?

[Mike_Young]

My bet is that in 10 years PD rates above Old MacDonald.....99 golfers out of 100 don't know who McDonald is and probably 99.9 don't know what template holes are.  I haven't seen Old Mac but I do know I have seen committees work....and I would wager on the TD vs. the Old Mac entourage....and TD might have been sly like a fox with this entre thing....I would have

[Ian Andrew]

Why don't you wait until the thrill of first play is gone and time has given some perspective.

[Don_Mahaffey]

If it is Tom and team's best work then what's next? Why stop with MacDonald? We know they want to do great work, if this is their greatest, there must be more templates to build.

I have no doubt Old mac will be great fun to play and was built well.
And I'm sure it'll be highly rated and all involved will sign the praises of old mac for years to come.

I'm looking forward to a little less hype and a little more originality. I think there are still templates to create.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Couldn't agree more Mike Young.  After playing Old Mac and going around it with Urbina it is clearly no where near as esthetically appealing a site as any of the other Bandon courses.  Pac is simply one of the top few most beautiful golf courses in the world.  Old Mac isn't even close.

Here's the rub.  People on this site represent a small portion of the 28 million US golfers who enjoy the architectural features of a golf course.  They will all rate OM highly because of the facinating landforms, angles, contours and the tip of the hat to traditional designs.  The rest of golfers will see OM as interesting but not pretty.  Those golfers will try OM once then return and stay at the other Bandon courses.

I worry that 10 years from now, especially if golf is in another downturn, OM may not even be economically sustainable.

JC

[Jud_T]

Well,

We've pretty much run the gamut now- from OM supplanting Sand Hills as the best course built in the modern era to not being economically sustainable.  It's a pretty safe bet that the truth lies somewhere in between these poles.  The good news is all is not lost if we have time and effort to commit to mentally masturbating about this...Is it possible that the course is getting too much hype and there's a chance it won't live up to it in some folks' eyes? That would be a shame, although it'll leave a few slots on the tee sheet for us knuckleheads....

[Tom_Doak]

Jonathan:

On what basis do you wonder whether Old Macdonald will be economically sustainable?

Are you making an assumption that the maintenance costs are way higher?  [I don't think they are, though I don't have the numbers.]  Or are you just wondering if Bandon can sustain four golf courses?

From the beginning of the project, I've had two goals for Old Macdonald:

1.  The people who knew Macdonald's work would think it did a good job of honoring his legacy, and
2.  Long-term, the golf course will attract 26% of the play at Bandon Dunes Resort.

It's a bit early to tell on the second point ... after all, it's still not open for retail play! ... but I am fairly confident we've reached the first goal, and I think we have a good chance of getting to the second.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

You said, "I might grumble because I would like to think there are more people out there who appreciate a truly original design, than a design inspired by some other design..."

Does this mean that you might not consider another commission to do a course "in the style of" another architect, say a Mackenzie, Tillinghast, Ross, Maxwell, Colt, Flynn, etc...

[Tom_Doak]

Philip:

I never say never.

I've often looked to others' work as inspiration for a current project, or just to get out of a rut ... as I mentioned in a recent thread about Tumble Creek, for example, our inspiration there was that there weren't many classic parkland courses in Washington state, so we thought a course in the style of Tillinghast or Ross would be something different and successful.  But, that was entirely an internal decision.  It's different when you are going to market the course around that sort of connection.  It ties your hands a bit, if you are trying to stick with the program.

So, I decided not to pursue the MacKenzie / El Boqueron project, and I probably won't be looking for a Ross or Tillinghast tribute course anytime soon.  (I get plenty of that from consulting on their courses, anyway.)  I felt differently about Macdonald because I was so familiar with the classic templates and I felt like we could actually pull off something authentic to his style, whereas with other designers I think you would really just be stealing their names for marketing purposes, and doing what you wanted.  [Does anybody remember when Jack Nicklaus did a MacKenzie style course 10-12 years ago?  They gave it a lot of publicity at the time, but I'm sure few remember it now.  I remember it, just for the immortal quote from Jack that he "didn't know if they should call it a 'MacNicklaus' or a 'Nickenzie'."]

On the other hand, I have discussed with someone in Asia the possibility of doing a multi-course project and trying to do different architects' styles ... and in China I think that would be okay, since they don't have any of the original versions to enjoy or to learn from.  But I would only do it if they let me build a "Doak" course first.  There are only 29 of those [even if you include Old Macdonald and Sebonack], and I would like a few more chances to show what I can do with a free hand.

[Carl Rogers]

Item 1: As threads go on this site, they tend to get slightly re-named.  How about this name "Will OM be viewed as his best that will be open and accessible to a large segment of the golfing public"?  Australia and New Zealand are long way for a lot of us.  Sebonak and the Renaisance Club are private.

Item 2: In the world of buildings (my world), one can reasonably state that there have been perhaps only 6 to 8 "original" ones in the entirety of human history.  Every building project is at some level a blending of themes and variations.

Item 3: Does the 17th at Sawgrass represent an "original"?

Item 4: I and Scott Weersing (on this site) will be going to Bandon next Febrauary and try to play 36 a day for 4 days, each course twice.  I am usually a quick player and a grinder and thus it is hard for me notice things outside of the "tunnel".  I have been struggling conceptually trying to understand various elements of Riverfront for a period of time without having the means to discover the"originals".  Perhaps the trip will assist.  Is the third hole at Riverfront a kind of 'Alps' hole?

[Paul Richards]

Old Mac is Tom's best work.

[Greg Tallman]

My bet is that in 10 years PD rates above Old MacDonald.....99 golfers out of 100 don't know who McDonald is and probably 99.9 don't know what template holes are.  I haven't seen Old Mac but I do know I have seen committees work....and I would wager on the TD vs. the Old Mac entourage....and TD might have been sly like a fox with this entre thing....I would have

I would agree. I have chatted with a handful on the world list that put OM well below PD though certainly comfortably in the list.

[Tom_Doak]

Among other ridiculous things on this thread, it is pretty ridiculous that many people seem to have settled upon the final ranking of a brand new golf course before it has even officially OPENED for play!

[Greg Tallman]

Among other ridiculous things on this thread, it is pretty ridiculous that many people seem to have settled upon the final ranking of a brand new golf course before it has even officially OPENED for play!

Given your profession you should be thankful at those of us so silly as to discuss such things before the opening! 

[Jaeger Kovich]

Jaeger:

Good response.  But, I must confess that in my brief forays into grand European art museums [most recently, El Prado], I do tire of seeing the tenth interpretation of the same scene by different artists.

Tom - I understand your point as a viewer, wanting different subject matter. Trust me, I might be sick if I see any more slides of Judith and the beheading, a very popular subject during the Baroque period (my speciality). But what made these works of art the masterpeices we know today doesn't have so much to do with the subject or that it is incredibly beautiful, it has more to do with the originality of thought, willingness to experiment and the impact they had on art and other artists, pushing the discipline to a new level.

[David Kelly]

Ran,
I think your sample size of men of sound virtue may be skewed.  Assuming these are the particpants of the recent Bandon trip, one must remember this is the type crowd that eats this stuff up.  I know several people who would gladly play a "souless" hole than an alps..too unfair.

F*** them.

BTW, when I tee off at Old Macdonald on "opening day" I wonder if I'll also have a chance to win a prize for being the one millionth golfer to play the course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Among other ridiculous things on this thread, it is pretty ridiculous that many people seem to have settled upon the final ranking of a brand new golf course before it has even officially OPENED for play!


Tom, what's the matter with you, that's par for the course for this group 

[Ian Andrew]

Old Mac is Tom's best work.

Have you seen them all - Barnbougle Dunes, Cape Kidnappers, etc. etc.  ?

[Jonathan Cummings]

Jonathan:

On what basis do you wonder whether Old Macdonald will be economically sustainable?

Are you making an assumption that the maintenance costs are way higher?  [I don't think they are, though I don't have the numbers.]  Or are you just wondering if Bandon can sustain four golf courses?

From the beginning of the project, I've had two goals for Old Macdonald:

1.  The people who knew Macdonald's work would think it did a good job of honoring his legacy, and
2.  Long-term, the golf course will attract 26% of the play at Bandon Dunes Resort.

It's a bit early to tell on the second point ... after all, it's still not open for retail play! ... but I am fairly confident we've reached the first goal, and I think we have a good chance of getting to the second.

26%??  I have no idea where anybody could come up with this number.

Tom - You'll notice I was making no personal judgement of the quality of Old Mac - from a personal architectural standpoint it is clearly "off the map" good.  My point is that I think a majority of visitors to Bandon will choose the other courses over Old Mac because of the other three's better natural beauty - which attracts far more golfers than does good architecture.  After a year or so I would be astounded if Old Mac can pull a quarter of the rounds at the resort - thus my comment of long term economic sustainability.

JC

[Patrick Glynn]

Jonathan,

I think Doak's 26% was a little tongue in cheek - 100% of play divided up between 4 outstanding courses is 25%. +1% and he deems it a success...

I have played Pacific, Bandon and Trails but not Old MacDonald. I definitely agree wit Tom's earlier thread on how it dispels the perception that a resort has to hire different architects for all the courses pretty conclusively.

[Steve Lang]

 

..more than 1/4 of rounds is a worthy and attainable goal for OM.. the course certainly complements the other offerings there and ratings rankings aside, i heard folks talking about liking BD better than PD, they scored better!!  so much for gca appreaciation

 if you want to talk unsustainable, how about Chambers Bay?

p.s.  has anyone seen this marketing?
"The most eagerly awaited new course in the world. An instant classic."

Golf World.. from 2008
http://www.standrews.org.uk/The-Courses/The-Castle-Course.aspx    David Kidd's course that is a favorite of Melvyn's..

p.s.s.
as Ms Sheila remarked having lunch after "Bandon Trials".. no one can every say i don't know what a minority feels like, the testosterone levels here are really overwhelming ..

p.s.s.s. I loved OM, but i would have taken a TD course there as well  ..

[Bill Brightly]

I don't want to rank 'em, I just want to play em!!

Shipping the sticks tomorrow for my first time ever to Bandon and cannot wait!

I figure there is a beautiful blonde, a beautiful readhead, a beautiful brunette and a Bo Derek-inspired lady waiting just for me. I am not going there to rank...

See a bunch of you guys there on Wednesday!

[Peter Pallotta]

David K - ha,ha - good one.

To answer the question; No, I don't think he'd grumble if OM proves to be his best course. Tom has always reminded me of the jock who, 3O years later, is still re-living that game in  highschool when he threw the touchdown pass to win the conference championship. Deep in his heart he knows that his best days are behind him, but if he drinks enough Rolling Rocks he can forget that for another day.

Peter

[Jonathan Cummings]

Ahh Bill.  If you occasion this site there is no way you will be able to see the 4 Bandon courses without comparing them.  To you, if they are all just beautiful women, then you may consider other sites/blogs.

Remember, from the very beginning some 12+ years ago, discussing the merits and degrees of course quality was one of the fundementals and first things we talked and argued about here at gca.com.

12 years later - it ain't do different!

JC

[Jonathan Cummings]

David K - ha,ha - good one.

To answer the question; No, I don't think he'd grumble if OM proves to be his best course. Tom has always reminded me of the jock who, 3O years later, is still re-living that game in  highschool when he threw the touchdown pass to win the conference championship. Deep in his heart he knows that his best days are behind him, but if he drinks enough Rolling Rocks he can forget that for another day.

Peter

Cringe....

Stand by for a mortor lob from northern Mich!

[Tom_Doak]

Peter:  For me, Rolling Rock is a golf course, not a beer ... so I think you've misjudged me.  

As for my best days, we won't know when they were until I'm no longer here to argue the point.