Arthur Hills?

[David Wigler]

Pete,

I am out of my league here so I will defer to your knowledge.  I assumed that the architect was responsible for figuring where the low level areas were and not placing the holes such that they would be under water.  As well, I thought that the architect was responsible for creating greens that do not cause huge run off puddles that cannot be managed.

Pete - This reads like a sarcastic response and it is not meant as one.  If those are not the responsibilities of the architect, then I was wrong to criticize Hills in this case.  If those do fall under his responsibility, then in the case of Stonebridge, he is to blame.

[Lou Duran]

Of course, I don't have the discerning eye of Tommy N., but I really liked the natural look and feel of Hills's Hyatt Hill Country GC in San Antonio.  Conversally, Tamarron, north of Durango, CO, was a huge disappointment.  At a high altitude with large elevation changes, there are some dangerous blind shots, and numerous awkward doglegs.  Stonebridge
Ranch CC north of Dallas is a well conditioned, highly playable course which a number of people prefer over Pete Dye's more difficult Stonebridge CC next door.  My take on Arthur Hill is that like many architects, he takes on some sites which are not ideal for golf and engineers a course which is generally very playable, though perhaps not particularly inspiring.  If I wanted to develop an architecturally significant course, I would probably look elsewhere.

[John_Conley]

Shooter:

Those 18 holes are still there and they did a good job, I think, of making two courses out of one.  We can agree to disagree, which we just did on the TPC.

Where are those two courses you mentioned?  Have not heard of either.

[dick_cesana]

Hills has a new course opening in june 02 ,Newport Ntl.in R.I.Links layout no housing It doesn't look as bad as what I have been reading Hopefully it is a lot better as I have submitted an app.

[Ed_Baker]

Dick,
You're not leaving Metacomet I hope!!

[SPDB]

I thought I remembered a post a while back in which John Conley (among others) was singing the praises of Dunes Club at Seville. How come no one is bringing that up? From the pics it looked like Hills worked pretty well with the property, incorporating bunkers from craters that had been created from bombing runs.

[John_Conley]

Spiderbite:

That's a great point.  Walkable, and there aren't many houses because the development flopped.  I really like it and seldom hear from anyone that doesn't.

[Matt_Ward]

David Wigler:

Agree with your take on Hill (your post on 3/19 -- 11:30 AM). I have played a number of his courses and was deeply disappointed on what transpired at Bay Harbor. Your absolutely right on target about how great land can be constricted to a mediocre design. Minus about 3-4 holes on the Quarry where is the BEEF

Another course not mentioned but highly rated (3rd in the Bluegrass State by GD) by Hills is The Champions in Nicholasville, KY. Here again you get the same old tired routine of "playability" to the max with bunkers beautifully maintained, but don't have a thread of connection to real shotmaking.

I also played the original Bonita Bay and was really interested in the course but it's been sometime because new holes have been added. I initially believed playability was compromised given all the wetlands and forced carries that were a part of the original layout. Has much change has happened since then? Has it become a better overall layout and which combinations are the best of the lot?

[John_Conley]

Matt Ward:

Bonita Bay demands very long carries.  Several of 230 yards from the back tee.  US OPEN champion Lou Graham said the way to make bogey on #9 was to hook it across the red stakes, knock it within 70 yards, and hope you get up and down!  That was better than landing in the pond and having to drop by the tee.

The first hole on the old Marsh, also #1 on the present Marsh, has a bump that runs across the fairway.  If you don't carry it, you are playing the wrong tee, as you will have to carry marsh several times during the round at that distance.

The good news is that the forward tees offer much shorter carries, although a long hitter would get shut off a lot from that distance.

The second 18 is across the street and called Creekside.  This is the course where "The Fine Green Line" culminates.  It is not as hard or long as the initial 18, but pretty good nonetheless.  A touch over 6700 yards.

The addition of the 3rd 18 cut up the first course.  Bay Island is the longest, over 7100 yards - a bunch when you consider how much water, and Marsh is barely 6600 and offers a bunch of birdie chances and D-W par 4s.

All of the slopes are very high.  Over 140 if I recall.

Which combinations are best?  That depends on your taste.  If I were a member, I wouldn't care where they sent me.  I like all and all share a similar flavor.  For variety, they added two Tom Fazio courses off site.  7000+ yard monstrosities that embody BIG GOLF.  I also like both of these courses, called Sabal and Cypress.  The character of the Fazio courses is almost 180 degrees shifted from the Hills courses.

Let's put it this way... if you visited the Naples area for one week and played each of these courses once, I'm sure you'd have a great time.  It is a LONG, LONG drive to find substantially better golf in our state.  Maybe a couple private clubs near Seminole and a good number of public courses around World Woods.

[Matt_Ward]

John C:

Thanks for the details!

How would you describe the green sites at Bonita Bay? The original 18 I played was fairly ordinary -- although your point on the number of the long carries is something I have not forgotten.

Would you include the original course or any other you cited as being among the top 25 in Florida?

Off the subject of Arthur Hills -- is the overall golf in or around Naples / Fort Myers improving or is it just another sleepy private-gated 18-hole layout after another.

[John_Conley]

Matt again:

Green sites?  I suppose you could say that these are rather pedestrian.  Flattest greens I've ever seen are at Lagoon Legend, and my take was that it made sense because you got beat up so much on the way to the green.

You might be able to make the same argument about the courses at Bonita Bay, but the greens aren't flat.

I do think that Bay Island is in my personal Top 25 in Florida, FWIW.

[TEPaul]

Just a momentary departure and then back to Art Hills.

I've not really followed this topic but buried in the middle of it is an indication of one of golf's great missed opportunities.

Apparently, JakaB requested of Tom MacWood to come and play Ohio St. Scarlett course but no one knew who JakaB was, certainly not Tom MacWood.

JakaB wouldn't tell Tom who he was and offered to "reveal" himself on the first tee! Ultimately Tom concluded that JakaB might be a jerk, that he should apply Rule 35, and turned down the request.

Some people think they know who JakaB is and some have even played with him apparently but I don't believe anyone really knows who he is. There was even a photo of him playing with some of our contributors in California but I've been told conclusively that was actually someone else. I've talked to him twice on the phone and the first time he sounded Midwestern and the second time he sounded Swedish. From his posts on here everyone can see though that he's a through-going expert on Mozart, Golf architecture, Shakespeare, Pro tour golf and Mrs. Mickelson's cervix. All his posts have been quietly archived for posterity!

Tom could have even signed him in as Mr. Jerk A.K.A. Barney and then experienced one of golf's great revelations minutes later on the first tee. But the otherwise sensible Tom MacWood missed one of golf's great opportunities.

And what was JakaB's response to this rebuff? He let on sometime later that the fact that Tom thought he might be a jerk was the only thing that he's ever agreed with Tom on!

Stay tuned because it can only happen here on Golfclubatlas.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

More on Arturo Hills:

Lou regarding a "discerning eye," I can only claim that I have obtained it from being around a lot of intelligent people regarding the subject of design. I learn more and ore everyday, and the more I do, the more projects like Cross Creek and Black Gold become even more glaring holes in one's resume.

I think a lot of people have to put there games aside and realize that all of this has nothing to do with playing the course as much as enjoying the land on which it was built. Certainly Cross Creek deserved a much better design for the land that was at the architects dispense. The ony problems he had were the enviromental considerations of the creek, and while the opening holes which utilize the creek are the best the course has to offer, I can only think of what staying away from the creek would have produced on such beautiful site. This could have been a golf course that had very minimal enviromental problems if the routing would have stayed away from it. That is where the problems all start--The routing.

From there is it the tie-in of holes to the existing terrain. So many modern architects in cut and fill mode get away with blending in the natural slopes just off of the fairways and roughs, and spend so much time creating mounds and other uselss containment; then fairway rolls which aid in NOTHING, that the holes look manufactured. That in turn leads to something I have never seen on other Hills courses that I have played, but has appeared recently at Black Gold and Cross Creek, and that is pushed-up green complexes that make little sense other then to add difficulty where it is not needed. Add rough grass around these areas and you have the makings of a brute with no brains.

It isn't hard to build the toughtest golf course in the world, in fact it would seem like it is very easy. But I'm equally amazed how much passion and heart it takes to build the most solid of designs. Surely doing it from the confines of an office work station in a old farm house near Toledo, Ohio or cabin in the wilds of Canada (While designing green complexes and drinking coffee) would have the least affect in building and designing in such a way.

It all shows in the finished product.

[Dan Grossman]

Having played:
HMB Ocean
Belmont CC, OH
Brandywine CC, OH
Detwiler GC, OH
Giant Oak GC, MI
Legacy GC, MI
Maumee Bay St. Pk GC, OH
Heron Creek, FL

I am pretty disappointed with Art Hills' work.  He has concentrated most of his work in the Midwest (specifically Ohio and Michigan) and southwest Florida.  Having spent a fair amount of time in both places, one needs to be fairly discerning on the projects taken on since good golf course land is at a premium.  (Both places are about the flattest land I have ever seen in the US).  Even when confronted hilly land, Hills uses it poorly.  For example, the first hole at Heron Creek (dubbed the highest point in Florida) falls awkwardly over the terrain, starting with a semi-blind tee shot.  Not very inspiring for the first hole.  None of the courses are terrible (with maybe the exception of Brandywine) but none of them leave you wanting more.  It is mediocre golf design at its best.

I have heard good things about Longaberger and the course at Palmetto Dunes.  I hope those two courses will turn around my opinion of AH's work.

[nils]

When I asked the simple question  I had no idea that the subject of Hills work was quite so  debatable. Since walkability, or rather the lack of it, seems to be at the centre of many answers I am getting quite catious. I would say that the ratio walking-riding in Sweden would be something like 98-2. So the issue is important.

So far we have very limited experience of US architects on Swedish soil. A couple of years ago Ron Fream designed a course here in Gothenburg, which proved to be totally unplayable and is now  completely redesigned.

Dare I start a thread on Fream?
  

Nils

[David Wigler]

Nils,

If you have some input in the design of the course, then you should stress that point with Hills.  It seems clear to me that he is the brand of architect who builds courses based on where he thinks the holes will fit best in xxx acres and then routes the course after it is done.  If he is not told that the course must be a walking course, I would bet it isn't.  Frankly, if you have input in the project, you should rebid it and get Young, Eckenrode, Hanse, Meagher, Devries or one of the many other excellent up and coming architects who post on this site.  They will cost a lot less and produce a far superior project.

Dan G. - Palmetto Dunes will not change your opinion.  It is the same old stuff.  Bad routing, awful green complexes, cute holes.

[Peter Galea]

"Abandon all hope, ye who enter here!" Golf is doomed in Sweden. Play chess in the Stolkholm Square instead, or tour the Wasa.

I've only played one Art Hills' course, HMB Ocean, the one I was involved in. It has interesting greens, it is walkable and I think it is a good routing on a difficult site. But, hey! What do I know?

[THuckaby2]

I'm with Pete G. 100% - I too have played exactly one Art Hills course, the same one as him!

So I love the guy's work....

TH

[Dan Grossman]

Pete and TH -

HMB is my favorite course of all of Art Hill's work.  However, the fairways are excessively wide at the sake of interest.  (I know it is a resort course, but you can blow it ANYWHERE out there).  Plus, I didn't think the last three "cliff" holes were anything to write home about.  16 is a good hole, although it is tough to judge what to hit off the tee.  The 17th is a good par 3, but it is impossible to tell exactly where the cliffs cut in and out.  I strongly dislike 18.  It is an awkward blind tee shot.  Plus, now that the hotel sits on top of the green (not Art Hills' fault) you can't go for the green in two without worrying about hitting it into the hotel.  

In the interest of fairness, I really do like the back to back short par 5's on the front nine.  #2 is a good short par 4 as well.

[THuckaby2]

DG - fair assessment of HMB-Ocean most definitely.  I'd just counter with:

16 - the fact you can't really judge what to hit off the tee ADDS to the greatness there, for me.  In fact I love it just for that - I think I've played it 7-8 times now and I'm still not very close to figuring that out with certainty.  I like that!

17 - good par 3 - I like the GREEN more than the cliffs or the view..

18 - fair assessment indeed, concession to a very successful hotel.

As for it being wide, again that adds to things for me.. there are good and bad angles and the wideness allows for these to be "discovered."  

It's not the world's greatest "test of golf", that's for sure (though get any wind and it sure ain't easy).  But my thoughts on that issue have been expressed far too many times in here - give me a fun place that's tough to figure over a "test" any day!

Have you played Barona?  Wideness/expansiveness is a big thing there... Better mentally prepare yourself if that's not your cup of tea!

TH

[David Wigler]

Pete,

I think I will be meeting you at Barona, so we can have this discussion offline if you would like.  I was sincere in wanting your opinion on the issues I mentioned, and if they are Hills’ fault.  What was your involvement at HMB?

For the record, I have played Palmetto Dunes, Palmetto Hall, Oak Pointe, Legacy, Stonebridge, Pheasant Run (Lived on it), Shepard’s Hollow, Bay Harbor Links/Quarry, BH Preserve, Hills course at Boyne, Champions Golf Club, Dunes West, Egypt Valley, El Conquistador, Persimmon Ridge, Shaker Run, Pine Trace, Southern Trace, TPC at Eagle Trace, Thoroughbred (Which I really like) - I promised myself I would stop trying to think of others when I got to 20.  

My point is that my opinion of Hills is not based on a limited view of his courses.  The courses above are in six different states and two countries, so it should be a very fair cross section.  With the glaring exception of HMB, they also represent what many consider his best work.  Offline yesterday, one of the other posters on this DG said I was too kind comparing his work to Outback when it is typically Ponderosa.  I do not think Sweden is in danger from the man but I really believe they could do much better.

[Peter Galea]

David, that's quite an impressive resume of Hills' work. I can't argue with that. Hopefuly we will meet at Barona.
At HMB I was the owner's rep, grow in super and ran the day to day for 2 years till my departure. I'm not afraid to admit I'm biased, this was "my baby," from mass ex to open and beyond.
It will always be special to me, I have over 3000 slides of the project and know every inch.

[THuckaby2]

DW:  please also do realize Bay Area public golf is just that much the better for Pete's efforts at HMB-Ocean.

The same sure as heck goes for Pajaro Valley, his current haunt!

And you know what?  I'd say this even if Pete wasn't such a great guy.  The fact he is such just makes all this that much easier to say!

TH

[David Wigler]

Pete,

If you had the time, I would absolutely love the opportunity to play HMB with you on one of my next visits to your coast (As a side note - thank G-D for the verdict yesterday.  I was imagining another California riot ala Rodney King, only this time in San Francisco with pissed off lesbians).  I promise I will come in with an open mind and would thoroughly enjoy walking it with you and discussing its merits.

As another positive note, Stonebridge just hired U of M's superintendent.  This guy is fantastic.  I do not know if the people at Stonebridge have any idea how lucky they are.  He might just be able to fix some of the obvious warts and turn it into something good.

[THuckaby2]

DW - you oughtta make a point of seeing HMB-Ocean for sure next time out.  Give me a call - if there's room with Pete or he can't do it, I'll shlep you along and I definitely OWE you for the recent Mayacama favor, that's for sure!  A round with you AND Pete there would be SWEET for me also.  Say summertime... Pete WALKING along... whaddya think, Pete?

As for yesterday's verdict, it was indeed good for the sanity and safety of the Bay Area.  Has there ever been a couple with more stacked against them in terms of looks, media scrutiny, etc.?  If ever anyone were guilty until proven innocent, it was those too.  I didn't follow the case closely enough to assess whether justice was done or not with certainty, but it sure seems so in any case.

TH