Is Bethpage Black America's Most Beloved Public?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Certainly seems like it in regards to the tug of war going on in the post down below.

I have never been to BB, but have always hoped to venture ot its fairways. I don't mind sleeping in the park to do it either.

But as inspired by an earlier phone call from this evening--Here we have three examples of restorations

Riviera-A private club where the ownership is screwing everything up as well as Tom Fazio's signature on a project he has never even seen.
Merion-A private club where the greens committee is screwing everything up as well as Tom  Fazio's signature on a project that he has placed in the hands of an lesser known associate/member.
Bethpage Black-A public course which at the hands of the New York State Parks Authority and Rees Jones, seems to have grasped the intent of Tillinghast's great public design.

While the work is ions away from what I or Tom MacWood would call "GREAT," lets not forget the contractor on site for all three of these. (McDonald Duck and Sons)

Does anyone see a pattern here?

[Robert Moses]

"Bethpage is the Peoples Country Club!"

Farmingdale Record, April 25, 1935

[Paul Richards]

Bethpage is America's premier "real" public course.

Of course, this definition does not include resort courses.

[Brad Klein]

Don't forget some other, equally heralded muni layouts - praised as much for their boldness and innovative design as their proximity to real poeple. Remember, Bethpage is 25 miles away from midtown Manhattan. Some other courses are more centrally located and equally famous, including George Wright in Boston, Triggs Memorial in Providence, West Seattle GC in Seattle, Harding Park in SF and Rancho Park in LA, Tenison Park in Dallas and Brackenridge Park in San Antonio.

Three cheers for muni golf.

[Matt_Davenport]

Brad,
Only three cheers... What would that equate to on the Doak Scale?

[Matt_Ward]

Tommy N:

To qualify your thread -- the most beloved muni or taxpayer owned facility in my mind is Bethpage. To have five courses in one facility is indeed a testament to vision many, many years ago.

I will say the Black is indeed a better overall course, although I wish it would have retained a bit of its wild and rugged former look. But that's a minor aside -- the layout has been strengthened and the fundamental nature of its allure is still there -- I urge anyone making claims it isn't and who have not played it to see firsthand for themselves.

Brad Klein mentions other munis around the country and each clearly is a plus to their native city, but Bethpage stands alone in the totality in which it serves the common man and woman. The Open is merely the final compliment on a course more will grow to appreciate this June. In my mind, Bethpage is like the Empire State Building -- yes, there are now bigger buildings, however, when both came into existence in the '30's they were both lightyears beyond all others in terms of scope and comprehension.

[Mark_Fine]

My feeling is if it weren't for the U.S. Open, only New Yorkers and the few that post on this site would have ever even heard about this golf course!  It's easier to get on Shinnecock Hills than to play on the Black    
Mark

[Mike_Sweeney]

It is a 7 on the Doak scale in his book, however I would argue for an 8 since the restoration.

[Paul Richards]

Mike:

Agreed.  It's at LEAST an 8 after the restoration!

[Gene Greco]

   Spent every weekend at Bethpage from the time I was 12 until I left for college in 1976. Dad and Mom used to drop me off at 7 am and pick me up at dusk. Upon arriving there was invariably a 3 to 5 hour wait to play ANY of the courses with the Black being the LEAST popular at the time. I would occupy myself waiting to tee off by hitting balls and having a myriad of putting and chipping contests. When the time arrived to step up to the first elevated tee at the Black I knew I was at someplace very special.It does indeed hold a special place in my heart and always will.
     Though the courses which Brad has listed hold a special charm it is only Bethpage, specifically the Black and the Red courses, which are world class. The Green, Yellow and Blue courses all have a similar feel and are a joy to play as well.
     Upon returning to NY 13 years later and prior to joining a club I found it necessary to park my car on line with others starting at 10 PM on the weekend night prior to the day we wanted to play! We would alternate each weekend as one of our group would line up at 10pm to midnight and sleep in the car. The rest of us would arrive at 3:45 am tap on the window to wake up that indinidual hop in that car and wait for the park employee to hand us a numbered ticket. Then we'd park the car and wait for the other park employees to arrive (about half hour) and wait for our number to be called to arrange a tee time. First tee time would be at about 5:45 so we'd have breakfast hit some balls and be on our way.
      Rounds played at that time of the morning lend themselves to be played in about 4 hours and 15 minutes. Any tee time after 7:30am would mean 5 1/2 to 6 1/2 hour rounds. Hence, the reason for the midnight run.
       Today, there is a reservation system (a bit corrupted)which makes getting to play the Black incredibly difficult. I still enjoy teeing it up there and go at about 3:30pm just prior to twilight rates; get lucky more often than not.
       I live next to Shinnecock and NGLA and have played most of the top 50 courses in the world. I will always make the time for a pilgrimmage or two each year to Bethpage Black because I feel its worth it. Also, its because I love the Black Course at Bethpage. So, Tommy, the answer to your question from my perspective is a resounding "YES!"

[Mike Cirba]

Among Muni's...

Cobb's Creek in Philadelphia is a disgrace, with greens the consistency of oatmeal.  Oh that someone with foresight would just buy and restore the place!

Baltimore is among the best muni systems in the country, with Mount Pleasant, Pine Ridge, and Forest Park all being very affordable treats with cool architecture.

Anyone who argues that it is impossible to maintain munis in good condition because of high volume should take themselves down to Baltimore to be proven wrong.

Salt Lake City also has a nice muni system, including the really fun Bonneville course.  

[THuckaby2]

Anyone who argues that it is impossible to maintain munis in good condition because of high volume should take themselves down to Baltimore to be proven wrong.

When can we send the San Francisco Rec and Parks folks to Baltimore?

Oh, screw it.  They'd just eat a bunch of crab and come back saying they need more money.

TH

[Matt_Ward]

Tom H:

One of the biggest items of interest to keep in mind is this:

a). Many people who operate the public munis are often political hacks who have little, if any knowledge of golf and what it means to service golfers. In many cases you get an indifferent and arrogant approach.

b). And, there are cases where the people who do know golf and run these systems will play there golf at others places and therefore really do not have a link to their daily patrons.

Bethpage Black is sooooo much better than what it was when I first played the course and there is no way words can describe it. Tom, I've played Harding Park and know full well what you are saying. Bethpage has done a major league transformation and I agree with Gene -- I can fully appreciate the "before" and the "after."

Gene -- I used to drive from Jersey every weekend with a group of buddies back in the early 80's before the reservation system took hold. I much like the old system when you had to be somewhat adventurous to earn the right to tee off on the Black as the sun was just pulling up from the horizon. Glorious stuff indeed! You are absolutely right -- if you teed off after 7:30 to 8:00 am the effects of slow play would be unbearable. Heck -- I can easily remember meeting up with four to five other groups as you got the 2nd tee at the Black.

FYI -- Other muni operations of note include the following -- Monmouth County Park Commission, Somerset County Park Commission and Morris County Park Commission -- all in New Jersey with a range of courses and they do a solid job in giving their residents a good foundation for the game. They are not in the league with Bethpage but worthy of emulation by others throughout the country.

[THuckaby2]

Matt:  re Harding Park, being like Bethpage is so far-fetched as to not being close to a dream....

Gib can speak to the ineptitude of the SF folks far better than I.  Just rest assured "sad" doesn't go far enough.

TH

[Tim_Weiman]

Mike Cirba:

I played Pine Ridge during a couple visits to Baltimore and agree with your view that it is a damn good muni.  One of the best I've seen.

[SL_Solow]

While its not a muni, Cog Hill is extremely beloved in the Chicago area.  Joe Jemsek, the patriarch of the Jemsek family, is generally credited for elevating the level of public golf.  A real credit to our game.  Cog Hill is an interesting difficult modern test which hosts the Western Open.  The other 51 weeks it is the midwestern heartbeat of public golf.  The Jemseks also allowed the CDGA to locate its headquarters there and allowed the CDGA Foundation to build a learning facility and short course for junior and handicapped players.  They also gave land for turfgrass research.

[Mike Cirba]

Tim,

Next time you're in Baltimore, I'd highly recommend Mount Pleasant, which used to host the "Eastern Open" in the 50s.  Pine Ridge hosted the LPGA Championship for a number of years, as well.    

Incidentally, both Mount Pleasant and Pine Ridge were designed by local parks superintendent Gus Hook.  He also did city courses Carroll Park and Clifton Park, which are interesting as well, if shorter.  He also made some additions and changes to Alex "Nipper" Campbell's Forest Park, another city course.  

Some months back, Kye Goalby started a thread asking if anyone knew anything about Gus Hook after playing Mount Pleasant, as he was very impressed.  

He has to be one of the most naturally gifted "amateur" architects in history, even given his limited, localized repetoire.

More amazingly, and germane to this discussion, is the fact that these courses get a tremendous amount of play, yet are maintained superbly with firm and fast conditions.  Baltimore made me question ALL of my previous assumptions about "muni" golf.