Arthur Hills?

[nils]

Hills is designing a new course in Sweden. As it is his first venture over here and I am not familiar with his work I would like your opinion. (I was not overly impressed with the early routing for this course I have seen.)
Thanks in advance.
Nils

[TEPaul]

Nils:

The world's expert on Arthur Hills would be Tommy Naccarato. He will doubtless be on here soon to tell you anything you need to know. Don't even think of questioning him, his word is as good as gold.

[David Wigler]

Nils,

I now know how to use the search engine.  Go to page 27 on apges (Looking for a thread last posted on 1/6).  You will see a whole thread on Art Hill's work.

Living 30 minutes from his corporate offices, I see a ton of his work.  My opinion is that he has a good eye for eye candy hole placement and builds a functional golf course.  He also is completely incapable of a functioning routing and the worst designer of green sites of any architect I have ever seen with a body of work more than 20 courses.  I have never played a walkable Art Hills course (Any I have played more than 20).  His latest effort in Michigan (Shepards Hollow) has the best green sites he has ever done and they still would pale in comparison to the worst of Doak, Dye, et al.

For 48 more criticisms, go to the 1/6 thread on Page 27.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Calling Tommy N, lets hear your opinion on Art Hills.

[John_Conley]

I'll stick up for Hills as the courses he's done around here are quite good.

My favorites are at Bonita Bay, where is 54-holes in a housing development are one of the finest examples of "meeting the expectations" of the owners anywhere.

BB is one of the most successful developments in the world.  Its residents are there for the weather, the lifestyle, and the golf.

The GC at Cypress Head is a nice municipal and Stoneybrook West is a pretty good place considering the site was very bland.

[JakaB]

The infalible Golfweek raters put Art Hills Longenburger above the MacKenzie/MacWood Scarlet in the Ohio rankings.  I had a chuckle on that one guys....thanks.

[David Wigler]

John Conley,

Are any of the courses you mentioned able to be Walked?  Also, is their any interest to the green complex's or are they just a disjointed series of nice holes?

[David Wigler]

Barney,

Have you played Longaberger and Scarlet?  What do you think they both are?

[John_Conley]

The courses at Bonita Bay are in a swamp.  You might be able to walk one of them, but Creekside would have long walks from green to tee because of housing.

I've never walked, and only walk once every year or two in Florida.  Not by choice.

Live here a decade and you will become numb to walkability.  Start with an iffy site, throw in housing, consider the five months of the year where the temp and humidity are both over 90, and walkability is less of an issue.

We're not in Kansas anymore.

(Dave:  I'm answering your question.  If you are just playing Devil's Advocate and implying that Hills' work in Florida isn't decent, you are woefully off base in considering his "target market".  Bonita Bay is insanely successful.  Poor golf would have prevented this.  I have played a lot of golf there and love the place.)

[JakaB]

David,

I can't play Longenberger cause I hate, hate, hate the baskets...I just hate em and the big thighed women that sell them and my wife when she pisses away money on them...I turned one into a litter box just so my cat could say how I really feel about them.

I emailed MacWood about playing Scarlet with me but he refused because I am a jerk.  First thing he ever said that I agreed with.

I have heard good things about Longenberger I just can't go there...it even pisses me off thinking about the place...If I were them I would put Longenberger baskets on the flag sticks...now that would be worth some points.

[David Wigler]

John and John,

Thanks for the replies.

Mr. Conley - I was not playing Devil's Advocate.  I do not think I have played any of Art Hills work in Florida.  I was simply guessing that he designed unwalkable courses with boring greens and looking for confirmation.  Believe me, Hills is the perfect (Outback Steakhouse, Applebee’s, Chili's, etc.) architect.  He never produces anything bad but never produces anything world class.  John, you would cry if you saw how good the site he had at Bay Harbor was.  I have never seen a better site for a golf course.  Imagine nine Quarry holes the caliber of Black Diamond and nine seaside links holes the caliber of Whistling Straits.  Hills put in a mediocre effort with flat out boring greens and turned a lock top 10 modern into a course that will probably settle in the 60's or 70's.  One can only dream what Young, Devries, Eckenrode, Smyers or some other lesser know talent could have done here, let alone a Dye.  I truly believe the site was better than Kidd had for Bandon.  Bonita sounds like the perfect Hills.  No worries about walking.  Pick 18 pretty sites for holes.  Don't worry too much about interesting green sites or fit of green to approach but make sure it is very pretty, very playable and very easy to maintain.  There is a market there (Probably a bigger one than the market most of us at GCA hope for) and Hills is the perfect fit.  His courses sell homes and home sites and make money!

Barney,

Play Longaberger and Scarlet.  I am not sure you will disagree with GW.  Play Longaberger soon though.  It will not be too much longer until it occurs to them to put their baskets on the flagsticks and call themselves Merion West  

[John_Conley]

Wiggles:

No problem.  I couldn't tell by the tone of your post about walkability.  It is a massive housing development.

The old Marsh was in the GD Top 100 in the mid-80s.  Nine wound up on the current Marsh and 9 wound up on Bay Island, the present "tournament" course.

Creekside is across the street.  

I like them all.

[JohnH]

Having worked on an Art Hills design in Ann Arbor for two years (Stonebridge), I can say that walkability is out of the question.  I will say however that the greensites seemed interesting and the course has a great collection of par three's.  Typical housing development.  David (Wiggles?), I'm sure you've played this course....

[Richard_Goodale]

JakaB, et. al.

So what exactly is a "longish burger basket."  Were they some sort of picnic/golf ball/Big Mac recepticle jointly deisgned by MacKenzie, Kroc and Tillinghast?  We completely clueless bi-coastal/transatlantic people are bemused.....

[TEPaul]

JakaB:

You're truly a classic! Your post of 10:40am is a Golfclubatlas bags loaded homer. Just hang in here Pal, we'll take care of you! If you can't handle it for a while just sign your cat on, it sounds like you have a good deal of faith in his opinions.

[redanman]

I would have to weigh in and say that Arthur Hills work is uneven.  Some is very good (Most of Legacy Ridge and Walking Stick in Colorado) someis commercial (Hilton Head Island) some by pictures, don't look so good.  It could be anything.

F.G.'s Momma said it well...........Like a box of chocolates, neva' kno' what yor gonna' get....

[TEPaul]

Where you been redan (man)? I thought somebody redesigned you!

[redanman]

Where you been redan (man)? I thought somebody redesigned you!

I resemble that remark! (My forehead is severely sloped back to front, right to left with a big mound front right!)

Tommy, you know what I've been working on!

[golfdoggy (Guest)]

Hello,

I live in Michigan, very close to Hills offices in Toledo, OH. I have played many Hills courses over the past 10 years. Overall I would say that Hills is an average architect that gets the opportunity to work on some extraordinary projects. His best work is probably Shepards Hollow which was built on some extremely hilly land North of Detroit. I have played many of his lower budget projects and they are average at best. His green - bunker complexes lack imagination and creativity. Maybe it was his shapers or the budget, but many of his courses are forgettable. His other courses I have played that were interesting are Bay Harbor and Half Moon Bay. Both are big bucks projects, but again you walk away saying it was good, but you know if Dye, Stranz, Doak or R. Jones would have had the project it could have been something special.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

BarneyF
Lets not misrepresent what happened. You e-mailed me to play golf, which I agreed to do. My only request was that you tell me who you were, what your name was. At which point you said you would reveal that on the first tee and I said I didn't make golf games with imaginary characters. I had idea you were a jerk.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Here we go again!

Another day where someone will no doubt get a word in edge wise accusing me of bashing. I guess I have it coming.

I have played to date, one good (Not great) Art Hills course--Half Moon Bay. It was an extra special excursion too when I did play it.

However since that day, Ihave played three more and i can say that it just doesn't seem as if Art really gets it. At least from the standpoint of how much one is going to allow his associates visit a course during construction. These things are the ultimate result of designing from a drafting table or work station with tons of grading and earth movement. Who cares what the natural aspects of the land look like because your getting the Art Hills name and that alone is enough to sell the project, right?

This type of architecture disgusts me. It is not only a waste of phenominal golf land, but a total sell out of principles. It is the worst in Golf Course Architecture. I have had communications in past years with a few people that have either worked with Art or worked with him at that time. they all haad nothing but great things to say about the man, and how he is the type of person that dictates everything that must be done to his liking. I just don't see that happening here. I see this work out here as nothing less then getting all of the plans done as quick as possible and when making site visits, making sure that there are no over night stays in the southland.


Nil's If this is what Art Hils can do to a perfect site in Southern California, I can only imagine how bad it may be in Sweden.

[Will E]

Art Hills in Sweden?  
Does this mean he will have less time to devote to projects in southern MI and SWFL?
The premise that on site time produces a quality project is shown to be false by visiting "the Legacy by Art Hills" located about 10 min. from his Toledo office. I hope for nils that he's got someone good in Sweden.

John,
I doubt many here know the original Bonita Bay as well as I do. It was a real neat course, perhaps even a 7 on the Doak scale. What's left of it now IMHO is really poor. As you say though, it is very successful for them. IMHO that does not mean it is good or is worthy of more than a 4. We've had the discussion before (sorry).
I do think that the next time your down in the SWFL area that you should check out Fiddler's Creek, to date it is the best Hill's course I've seen. BUT, if you can, you MUST see Calusa Pines, it makes my top 5 in FL. and makes me want to know more about Dana Fry.

[David Wigler]

JohnH,

Actually, I have played Stonebridge several times.  I belong to a Country Club in Ann Arbor.  Stonebridge is one of Hills failures.  Hills great strength is that he designs courses that are fair, easy to maintain, and profitable.  He blew the irrigation at Stonebridge and as you know, it plays like a bog.  My criticism of his green sites is that there is no interest.  How many holes at Stonebridge do you have to decide which side of the hole you want to play for or which part of the green you want to be on?  His bunker placement is strictly for eye catching but adds nothing to the green complexes.  Several do not fit at all.  Stonebridge originally planned to go private.  Do to these problems, it never made it and now (I'm told) struggles as a public facility.

Do not get me wrong.  I think Stonebridge is a 4 on the Doak scale and I agree with you that it has a very good set of threes (And a horrible first hole and a mediocre set of fives).  Could someone else have done more with the site?  I think so.

Shooter brings up a great point though.  If this means Art Hills is going to Sweden and therefore will not be building any more in SE Michigan, than I would use the modify button (If I knew how) retract everything I have said, and tell Nils that if it wasn't for the arrogance of the US press, Art Hills name would rightly be on the short list with Mackenzie, MacDonald, Raynor, et al.

[JakaB]

I have a friend that told me that both Longaberger and Bay Harbor were good courses...whats your opinion in comparing the two.

I have been considering writing Longaberger about putting baskets on the flagsticks....Is there any way Merion would have a copyright....I know for a fact that many midwestern goat ranches ran by women (as most goat ranches are) would love to have their very own baskets with red, white, or blue weaves to indicate pin placement.

[Peter Galea]

David, Art Hills did not blow the irrigation for the course you speak of. He didn't design it. That part of the project is done by an irrigation consultant/designer, ususlly chosen by the owner and installed by the contractor. The system is run by the superintendent. At HMB Ocean, (the Hills project I was involved with) I had some of the worst soil on the planet. Most of the site was very expansive clay. I ammended this soil with 4 tons of Lime and 4 tons of gypsum per acre before planting. Through careful planning and operation of the system, it always played firm and fast during my tenure.