[Neil_Crafter]

Have just come across this article from The Brooklyn Daily Eagle, and as a keen Mackenzie researcher you can imagine that it got me a little interested (and thanks for the kind assistance from Joe Bausch). We know Mackenzie did some par 3 and pitch and putt courses, but exactly where? One apparently for Douglas Fairbanks and possibly Charlie Chaplin, and Mac refers to one in San Francisco in a letter to Clifford Roberts, but we had not heard of a possible NY one.

The writer is Ralph Trost, who wrote the articles on Bayside and as I understand it met Mackenzie during its construction. As the golf writer for the Daily Eagle, he would seem to be a fairly reliable source. So here we have a small article from 27 August 1933 mentioning that a pitch and putt tournament would be held - didn't say exactly when - on the "little course laid out by Dr. Alistair Mackenzie, creator of Cypress Point."



Not being an expert on Long Island geography, I do know though that Jones Beach is a state park created around 1927, by the same state park commission that created Bethpage. The pitch and putt course still exists today as I understand it. Various old threads here on GCA, especially those discussing the Burbeck/Tillinghast design credit furore over Bethpage Black, have mentioned Jones Beach with some suggesting Burbeck may have designed a proposed 18 hole course for Jones Beach that apparently was never built.

But here the plot thickens. I also found an earlier article in the Daily Eagle, from 14 October 1930, nearly 3 years prior to the article that mentions Mackenzie, but also written by Ralph Trost. It is quite a detailed article describing the new 18 hole pitch and putt course that had recently opened on a 4 acre plot at Jones beach, and built by the Long Island State Park Commission. Interestingly, the article credits the course's design to "Messrs Von Schaik, Berwick, Jones, Le Valley, et al." who had little knowledge of golf according to Trost but did a decent job in his opinion. Does anyone know of these particular gentlemen? Presumably they are engineers and horticulturists from the Commission. I even wonder if Berwick could be Burbeck?

So this begs the question - if there was a pitch and putt course at Jones Beach in 1930 designed by some engineers from the State Park Commission, why then is Mackenzie credited - by the same writer - with having designed the course only three years later? Was the 1930 course poorly built and designed (chances are that it was) necessitating a rebuild a short time later? A rebuild that was done by Mackenzie, quite probably with Wendell Miller if that was the case?

Quite a little mystery, and hopefully a NY based GCA researcher might care to volunteer to help us do some more digging - especially in the records of the State Park Commission in regards to the construction of this course. Any comments and suggestions would be appreciated.

And here is the 14 October 1930 article on the pitch and putt course.

[Mark Provenzano]

Benjamin L. Van Schaick was the Secretary of the Long Island Parks Commission in the 1930s. I don't read that article as saying he and those other gentlemen were the designers of the course in literal sense.

The part about different kinds of grass on every green is interesting, could have been quite a little challenge.

[Neil_Crafter]

Mark
Thanks for the info on Van Schaik.
The article says "The designers admitted a shortage in golf matters" which I take to mean they had very little knowledge of golf and building a golf course. If Mackenzie had designed this iteration of the course surely Trost would have mentioned him and would not have said he had a shortage of golf knowledge! I do take the article to read that that the four men, and others, were the designers and builders of the course, but that's just my interpretation and could be wrong.

[Phil_the_Author]

That is a nice find Neil, but the Jones Beach 4-acre 18-hole pitch & putt, which is still there by the way, was designed by Mr. Joseph Burbeck. It was that design that led to his being appointed as superintendent at Bethpage. I wish I had the time to go through my files and pull out the information for you, but it'll have to wait...

Van Schaik, in a 1934 article about the creation of Bethpage stated that the new golf courses, "are being designed and built under the supervision of the Long Island State Park Commission." That is the EXACT same language he would use 8 years later when he would write for the Long Island Forum that the courses were "designed and built under the supervision of Joseph Burbeck." It was that article which became bound into a 1958 booklet with others that was published by NY State as the history of Bethpage... and so a legend began...

[Mark Provenzano]

Neil-

I recalled reading an article on Bethpage that discussed Van Schaik, I should have taken the extra 30 seconds to try to find it:

http://www.tillinghast.net/Tillinghast/Burbeck.html

In his April 1934 article "The Courses At Bethpage" Mr. Benjamin L. Van Schaick, Secretary of the Long Island State Park Commission, a man most certainly in a position of authority at the time that the park came into existence and was there for the planning and construction of the golf courses wrote this, "The courses are being laid out and constructed under the direct control of the Long Island State Park Commission."
Was he here stating or even implying that the members of the commission were responsible for the actual routing and design of the course? No one would even begin to believe that. This shows us that we need to be very careful in how we interpret what has been written in these matters.

(It appears I quoted an article written by the poster right above me, so I will just defer to what he wrote!)

[Richard Choi]

Here is an overhead view of the course in question...

[Phil_the_Author]

Mark,

Don't worry about it as I am also the person who wrote the article that you rememberred! Anyone who can remember something I wrote is more than okay in my book...

Phil "The poster right above you" Young... 

[Neil_Crafter]

Philip
Thanks for this. The problem I see is that I have two articles, around three years apart by the same reporter, saying one thing in the earlier article about the designers and then another in the later article. Why I wonder?

As I suggested, I suspected the "Berwick" in the early article may well have been "Berbeck", an understandable error. I would appreciate seeing the files you have when you get a chance to dig them out.

Rihcard
Thanks for the aerial. The course looks somewhat of a mess, to be kind.

[Tom MacWood]

Here is a map of Jones Beach circa 1931. It sounds like there were two courses - a big and a small. 4 acres is not a lot of land.

[Neil_Crafter]

Tom
Thanks for the plan. The Pitch & Putt appears to have been sited between the main roadway and the beach.

[Mike Sweeney]

Quite a little mystery, and hopefully a NY based GCA researcher might care to volunteer to help us do some more digging - especially in the records of the State Park Commission in regards to the construction of this course. Any comments and suggestions would be appreciated.

Neil

I have not played the JBPP (Jones Beach Pitch and Putt for Mr Moore!) but have walked and driven past it a number of times. I will simply suggest, it is probably not to worry too much about from I can see.

[Tom MacWood]

Here is another map of Jones Beach State Park, and you can see the position of the miniature golf course. According to Whitten's Golf Digest article on Burbeck & Bethpage, Burbeck was hired by the park commission on May 23, 1929, 'to design and build the pitch-and-putt course between the bathhouses.' Jones Beach State Park opened in August of 1929, and according to Whitten the Pitch-and-Putt course opened in 1931. I found this material when I was researching my article on Bethpage, which seems to have disappeared from this website.

[Mike Cirba]

Could it be that Burbeck had Mackenzie "consult" at Jones Beach?

I know at Cobb's Creek the man in charge was one Jesse T. Vogdes, Chief Engineer of the Park, and some articles made it seem as though he were responsible, which he was, technically.

However, he didn't design the golf course.

I suspect something similar may be the case here.

[Tom MacWood]

Is Mr. Berwick actually Mr. Burbeck?

[Gene Greco]

         This is a pitch and putt.

I used to take junior there when he was 4 years old.

It is fun and entertaining from a novice golfer's point of view. Frankly, more of thes type courses should be built to more easily indoctrinate those unfamiliar with the game.

However, the only architectural interest one might find here are the tanned nublie young ladies playing golf in bikini bottoms and flip flops.

I am incredulous Burbeck got the job at Bethpage for the work he might have done here.

Essentially he built a birdhouse and was then asked to build St Patrick's Catherdral.

[Neil_Crafter]

I have now found a couple of further articles from the Brooklyn Daily Eagle that appear to nicely confirm that Dr Mackenzie did design a pitch and putt course at Jones Beach, but it was a second one and was sited at a different end of the beach to the earlier one. Here's the first of the articles, also written by Ralph Trost from Nov 27 1931. What is also interesting is that it appears Mackenzie was involved in the Long Island State park Commissions plans for the 18 holer in Jones Beach and appears to have drawn up a design for it at least. More digging in the official records I think. So it would appear that there were two pitch and putt courses at Jones Beach at one time, and it is possible that the Mackenzie one did not survive and that the one there today is the one designed by Burbeck et al. This begs the question - if Mackenzie was involved with the LISPC at Jones Beach, why did they hire Tillinghast for Bethpage?



Subsequently, Trost wrote a brief obit notice after Mackenzie's death in January 1934, and the piece lists the Jones Beach pitch and putt course amongst his courses.

[Phil_the_Author]

Neil,

I believe that the reason that Tilly was given the Bethpage commission was because he was far and away the most experienced architect in the world at that time, and probably would be still so today if alive, in designing multiple courses at a single site that would be constructed at the same time. Especially as the existing course would also be reconstructed and rerouted this would mean work on 4 courses at the same time.

Tilly's multiple course work, especially in the New York area with Baltusrol, Winged Foot, Ridgewood, Fenimore, etc... certainly set him apart from anyone else including the good Dr. Mackenzie.

Yet consider this as well; as first President of Cypress Point Roger Lapham awarded the contract to Mackenzie and Hunter, yet he was the man who brought Tilly out to design the San Francisco Golf Club where he would also serve on the Board and Chairman of the Green Committee. Why then didn't Tilly get Cypress?

There are amazing stories to tell in the awarding of the great courses to different architects...

[RSLivingston_III]

Not intending to get off track, but has the hole remodeling at TOC, mentioned in that last article, ever been reviewed here?
In the jones2.jpg image, is the miniature golf course that is identified one of the two courses?

[Tom MacWood]

Neil
It never fails to amaze me how much new info is being discovered thanks to these digitized old newspapers and magazines.

[Neil_Crafter]

Tom
Yes, there is a wealth of material out there. Just a matter of finding it and searchable online archives have assisted greatly. If only someone would digitise the Yorkshire Post and then we would find a lot more out about Mackenzie for one!

Philip
I wonder why Tilly then did not get a go with the LISPC until later on? Agreed that Tilly had more runs on the board re multiple courses, especially in the NY region. Just wondering why Mackenzie fell out of favour and he did not do another course for them after the pitch and putt.

Ralph
I don't think it has ever been proven that Mackenzie did any remodelling on TOC. He did claim in his brochures to have consulted to the R&A, but likely this was his famous 1924 plan of TOC.

I'm not certain that the course that remains to this day at Jones Beach is the Burbeck one and not the Mackenzie one, just a feeling I have.

[Tom MacWood]

If I was to guess why Tilly instead of Mac (or someone else) I'd say it was money. Mackenzie was desperate, but Tilly was really desperate, and Moses got him for peanuts.

[Niall C]

I wonder why Tilly then did not get a go with the LISPC until later on?

Maybe someone should ask some modern day developers why they spread their favours around. Bandon might be a good place to start.

Niall

[Gene Greco]

Just wondering why Mackenzie fell out of favour and he did not do another course for them after the pitch and putt.

     He might not have been able to do so for he quite possilbly could have been sick at this time as he died in January of 1934. Quite a trek from Santa Cruz to NY in those days especially for someone with heart problems.

[TEPaul]

Neil:

To really understand what-all was going on at that time and later on Long Island and around New York one has to understand something about the life and times of a man by the name of Robert Moses. I don't think there has ever been a larger and more powerful force around a metropolitan area for plans and conceptions on a massively grand scale like that man.

During the depression a great deal of his work projects, including the Bethpage complex, Jones Beach, the Grand Central Parkway etc involved those government work projects to put the massive unemployment during the depression to work.

Some of Moses' parkways (early four lane highways that were some of the first in America) on Long Island either compromised or took out some of the really interesting early golf courses of Long Island.

When I was young on Long Island there was a lady by the name of Mrs. James who owned the farm next to ours in Glen Head, Long Island. Her husband worked on Wall Street and at some point she didn't see the point of his commute on the train into New York so she bought a house in Brooklyn and then followed that by buying a number of blocks as well. Eventually Moses came up with the concept of putting a highway (actually a skyway) right over the top of Brooklyn.

Mrs. James had a party at her house in Brooklyn with the Mayor, lots of politicans and Robert Moses. She held it right on the roof-garden of her house overlooking the East River and Manhattan, and at the high point of the party she spoke to the entire gathering and said: "Robert Moses, do you really want to destroy this by putting a highway right over the top of it?"

It was never done!

[Neil_Crafter]

TE
Thanks for the info on Moses. I have read a bit about him and Bethpage so I did realise he was a large figure in the development of Long Island. And in the case of your last anecdote, certainly for Mrs James a case of not what you know but who you know!!

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()