[David Wigler]

Hi all,

Looking for some advice from the turf heads out there.  Has anyone ever tried a slow conversion from Poa annua to Bent Grass during a golf season or a winter?  In the Midwest, my understanding is that Poa annua is such an aggressive grass (And we have had it for 89 years) that this would require a complete burn, shutting the greens down for a year and then crossing our fingers but I have read a little about new Bent and technology.  Would love some real world experience.

Thanks,

Dave

[John Foley]

David,

Read this article a few weeks back - it may help what you are looking for. The conversion was done not due to Poa but it was still a complete makeover.

https://www.golfcourseindustry.com/gci-0410-extreme-green-makeover.aspx

[David Wigler]

John,

It is a good article but not sure it makes me more comfortable.  Here is where I know enough to be dangerous but no where near enough to be knowledgeable.  We have a high salt content due to the River and very compacted greens with shallow root structures.  We are a dream Poa environment.  As well, it is everywhere on the course.  I keep wondering if the project could succeed or if we would just be inconveniencing our membership and then end up back with Poa in two years.  It was nice to hear that 21 days to get new greens is possible. 

Dave

[Anthony_Nysse]

David,
  There are several chemicals out there the really stunt the poa and allow the bentgrass to thrive. Trimmit and Velocity come to mind.

[Sean Leary]

David,

What is the reason behind going to bent? I assume you mean the whole course, not just the greens, right?

[Bill Brightly]

David,

There are superintendents on this site who know FAR more about this than I do, but here is what I learned as Grounds Chairman.

Courses that have a high percentage of poa try to increase the % of bent by pulling cores and overseeding with bent. This is best done in July/August, the hottest months when the poa is most stressed. This gives the new bent the best opportunity to become established. That is standard operating practice at many clubs, but to me, it means that you are always in a tug or war between the poa and the bent. It never really goes away and you can't overstress it in the hot summer months or you will lose your greens. That always seems kind of weird: courses seem to hate poa, yet they have to protect it so the players aren't putting on dirt...

I've seen great results when our super hit the poa with a seed head supressant in the Spring as Anthony mentioned. It really took the "bulk" out of the plant in May. But I hear that it is not an exact science on when you need to use the suppressant: use it too early or too late and it will have little effect, and the poa comes in at different times each year based upon the weather.

Saucon Valley gassed their Old Course greens four years ago and re-planted with 100% bent. They also stripped out the rough around the greens to get rid of nearby poa... Not so bad for them to close a course for one year: they have two others to play...Not many clubs can do that and keep the membership happy...What I noticed on the new greens was that it took over two years for the greens to "accept" ballmarks that were easily repairable. I would use the utmost care to repair them, the greens were "fussy" and did not mend like good old poa!

[Jason Topp]

David:

I asked a similar question last year although the topic related to killing and replacing:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41074.0/

Scott Anderson's interviews describe the process they went through at Huntington Valley which would be painful for a few years but might pay off at your club.

[David Wigler]

David,

What is the reason behind going to bent? I assume you mean the whole course, not just the greens, right?

Sean,

Just doing some investigation.  We were only talking greens.  Chemical companies are always telling us it is possible.  I was sceptical given our mix of compression, salt content and frankly that we are and have always been Poa.  Just wanted some additional knowledge.

Dave

[Bill Brightly]

You could always remind your membership that Oakmont is 100% poa

[Greg Chambers]

If the rest of the course is all poa, then I really don't see a reason to try to change your greens to bent.  You will constantly be battling the poa trying to come back in, and if you don't get rid of it on the rest of the course then you won't win that battle.

[Bradley Anderson]

I would be a a lot more interested in what your superintendent tells you than what you hear on this site.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

David, look back to the discussions about Olympic Lake. A big part of the redo on the greens was driven by the need to get rid on the poa. They have made it a year now with no problems

[David Wigler]

I would be a a lot more interested in what your superintendent tells you than what you hear on this site.

Bradley,

I hope you are not saying that no one should ever have any intellectual curiosity, just blindly trust Superintendents?  We did that for ten years and it was a disaster.  We were convinced into beliefs that have proven to be patently false.  I think we now have a fantastic young man as a superintendent.  He has done more for our course in one year than my wildest dreams would have led me to believe.  I have no idea what his opinion is.  As a member of a historically significant club, I try to keep up on current issues and had not seen this discussed in the context of current chemicals and processes.  I wanted the information for my knowledge.  My gut tells me that a whole course of Poa will need Poa greens but I wanted to hear the opinion of those with more knowledge than I. 

[Ron Farris]

David,
The previous superintendent at Whistling Straits, Dave Swift, is now involved in a golf course going thru the poa/blue conversion to bentgrass.
IM me for his telephone number.  I am sure he would have a mouthful to say.
Ron

[Steve Pozaric]

My club is going the fast way and using Methyl Bromide in the fall.  Based on other clubs' experience, we hope to be down in September and up in May.

We are looking at a number of different grasses - T1 A1, A4 or a mix.

[Don_Mahaffey]

David,
Brad's correct in going to your super for answers about your course.

In general, change doesn't happen unless you change the environment and management practices.

I'm with Joe Hancock right now as we are working on a renovation in So Mi. i told him about your thread. Joe has made the conversion, but it took years not one season. He says the first thing to do is pull the fuses out of the pump station panel. That's a joke, sort of, but a dryer environment favors the bent. You'll need to change to a dryer environment to make the transition. Greens on heavy soil that don't drain combined with bad water...tough deal.

I read the job posting for your supt position last year. Sounds like you've found yourself a good man. Give him some time.

[Joel_Stewart]

David, look back to the discussions about Olympic Lake. A big part of the redo on the greens was driven by the need to get rid on the poa. They have made it a year now with no problems

This is not really true.  The major reason was the need to get rid of the nemitode.

[Bradley Anderson]

David,

Poa/bent competition is a very regional issue. You will get advice on here that simply won't work as well in your area.

[Jerry Kluger]

David:  Army Navy Country Club in Virginia has two 27 hole clubs and they are finishing up a renovation project to all 54 holes where they converted the fairways to Bermuda and the greens to bent grass.  They gassed the poa in September and expected to be playable by the following June - I don't know if the timing actually worked.  Richard Mandell was the architect who did the course redesign while they did the greens in house.  Cost was not very great with respect to the greens but remember the loss of revenue when the greens are closed - play will be down dramatically with temporary greens and clubhouse revenue will also be down.

BTW: I was at Sand Hills and they had some poa infestation in some of their greens.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Joel, sorry you are correct, the poa was just part of the result.

[TEPaul]

David Wigler:

I just got back from a few days away so I haven't had the chance to read this whole thread but it sounds to me like the thing you need to look at carefully is this Greenway Maintenance and Management consulting company. I put a thread on here about it (entitled "Re--Greenway Maintenance and Management process!?" I think it's on about the 4th or 5th page now. They have a website too).

It basically looks like their entire theme and direction is poa to bent among a few other basics.

Architect Ron Prichard has had some experience with Greenway and he says he can hardly believe how good the results are. He read this thread and asked me to give you his number to call him about it. Here it is---215-896-3242. Give him a call.

[Chris Tritabaugh]

I too have seen the results of working with Greenway Golf. If a slow conversion to bent is your goal then they are definitely worth a call. Agreeing with Don and Brad, please talk to your Superintendent about this. If he is young and as good as you say this will most certainly interest him.

[Mark Luckhardt]

Westmoor CC in Brookfield, WI completed this in 08.
The internal greens drainage was installed in the spring of 08, while the course was open, and the course closed Aug 1 for fumigation of greens,regrassing and major restoration project.
Westmoor opened again for play in May 09.
They were really only completely closed during the playing season from Aug 08 to the fall of 08.

[Steve Okula]

I wish people advocating methyl bromide fumigation would go over to read the Chemical-Free Courses? thread.

MeBr is a contributing factor to the depletion of the ozone layer. Over the southern hemisphere, there is a hole in it the size of Europe, and increasing skin cancer rates in Australia are no coincidence.

It seems to me a steep price to pay for true golf greens.

[Randy Thompson]

David,
Is the current sub-base USGA or anything close? Drainage is super important if you want to change to a quality poa free bentgrass green. How high are the salts, we are constantly working with high salt water in Argentina and Chile and there are ways around it. I doubt if there a big issue if the poa is doing ok. You mention you current shallow roots, that is typical of the Poa, no matter what you do, poa will always have shallow roots. My experience is this, if you have a good suib base with good drainage and perculation you are half way there. If the greens are more than 40% poa, which is sound like in your case they are, burn them or gas them but you will need to start over. Depending on the time of the year, you will need, minimum two months to get good coverage and three to four months to have a playable green that will withstand the traffic. You donīt have to eliminate the Poa on the entire course but you will need to incorporate some programs following one year of establishment. Rubigan a fungicide can also act as a seed premergent against the poa but the results will be more in a percentage surpressiing catagory. Velocity as previously mentioned can be used to keep the poa out after the first year. It is important specific programs are followed in relation to the velocity but we have elimated greens with thirty to forty percent poa which invaded the bent during one years time and now are 100% bent again. We are mostly using a mix a mix of A1 and A4 bentgrass, so that helps in the overall programs because of its agressive and dense nature. In conclusion, you are consdiering a major disruption to the playing conditions and will create controversy within the membership. It will also be a significant economic investment. Spend a couple of Grand and hire at least one consultant and get a written report, even better if you have two. The USGA has good consultants and also check in your area for the most experienced consultant. I am confident both will reinforce what I am telling you with some possible additional advice or minor modifications.

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