[Adam Lawrence]

Steve, if I remember rightly, the EU introduced a total, no exceptions ban on MeBr as of this March. Is that right?

[Steve Okula]

Steve, if I remember rightly, the EU introduced a total, no exceptions ban on MeBr as of this March. Is that right?

*

That is correct.

[TEPaul]

Steve:

Do you have any idea if any poa annua strains could've survived in the original linksland swards that apparently only had natural agrostis (bent) and festuca (fescue) since some say they were the only grasses that could survive in that highly acidic soil?

[Craig Sweet]

Seems to me if you switch from poa to bent, you'll be doing it all over again in 25-30 years....even if you do change some maintenance practices.

[TEPaul]

"Seems to me if you switch from poa to bent, you'll be doing it all over again in 25-30 years....even if you do change some maintenance practices."



Craig:

By that do you mean you think it is impossible to have a growing environment in which bent grass can survive well that poa annua will not survive in at all?

[Joe Hancock]

I don't understand why the poa that survives(long term) the management practices favoring bentgrass is really that bad? Does it have to be all or nothing?

Do the right thing(long term) and the right thing will happen.

Joe

[Joel_Stewart]

There is not going to be a black or white answer.   It depends on too many factors especially the climate, budget, drainage, the superintendent, architect and construction company among many.

[Craig Sweet]

Tom....

I think it is difficult..and takes more than changing "some" maintenance practices.  And I have seen 20-30 year old courses that started out with nice fairways and greens and over the years poa became more a part of the sward..

[TEPaul]

"Tom....
I think it is difficult..and takes more than changing "some" maintenance practices.  And I have seen 20-30 year old courses that started out with nice fairways and greens and over the years poa became more a part of the sward.."


Craig:

I understand what you're saying. I'm just trying to understand if it is possible to create a situation in the Northeast, for instance, that would support bent grass well and basically keep out poa annua permanently.

The only reason I ask is because some have been suggesting that this Greenway system may be able to do that. If not, I would love to hear from others the reasons why they think that may not be possible.

[Craig Sweet]

Tom...how much of that difficulty in maintaining bent grass has to do with the politics of membership courses?  Doesn't it take years, perhaps decades, of a consistent political philosophy regarding course playing conditions?  And when that philosophy changes, then what? Back to over watering, thatch, and poa? 

[Steve Okula]

Steve:

Do you have any idea if any poa annua strains could've survived in the original linksland swards that apparently only had natural agrostis (bent) and festuca (fescue) since some say they were the only grasses that could survive in that highly acidic soil?

Poa can do quite well in acidic soils, thogh the bents and fescus stand a better chance of competing there.

It would be interesting to know how much Poa annua, if any, was found on links golf in the nineteenth or early twentieth century, when everything was totally organic, if anyone could point me to any sources.

[Grant Saunders]

Bradley Anderson and Don Mahaffey are right in suggesting you talk to your clubs superintendent.

Because of the huge number of factors involved, no one on here can actually answer what you are asking. Its like asking an online golf pro to fix your slice without them seeing your setup or swing.

Regarding the greenway program and how I understand it:

The methods the are promoting are nothing new or groundbreaking. They are advocating creation of an environment via pH, water and nutritional management in which poa will struggle to be competitive and the desirable grasses will dominate. This is not some radical new concept but is simply a getting back to basics approach in turf management. These methods have been around for a very long time.  They will however have a huge impact for clubs which are overwatered and overfed (the current situation at most courses).

Steve:

Do you have any idea if any poa annua strains could've survived in the original linksland swards that apparently only had natural agrostis (bent) and festuca (fescue) since some say they were the only grasses that could survive in that highly acidic soil?

Be careful not to generalise about bentgrasses.

Agrostis is a genus not a species and cover wide range of species.

The bents that are found in the UK and on links courses are predominantly: Agrostis capillaris (Common Bent; Browntop) (= A. tenuis)

The bents grasses used in putting greens in the US and much of Australia are: Agrostis stolonifera (Creeping Bent) (= A. palustris)
The creeping bents include A series, G series SR varieties etc.

The browntop varieties can successfully exist in very low pH values (I have seen them in 4.2) and an ideal range of 4.5 - 5.5. The creeping bents however have an ideal range 5.5 - 6.5 which is very similar to that of poa.

Acid theory promotes the goal of a pH value that the desirable borwntop will still remain strong in while at the same time discouraging the poa. I struggle to see how this can also apply to creeping bent with its similar pH requirement to poa.

[Randy Thompson]

I agree with Grant. 33 years ago I did an independent study as part of my University studies, on the works of Dr Roy Goss who was advocating using high rates of sulfur to lower the ph and dicsourage the poa. My conclusions were pretty much in line with Grant. Talk with the super, see how much knowledge and experience he has in this area. If he is young and lacks experience, then let him suggest some outside consulting, whcih he will do if he is smart, this is complex and lots can go wrong. I also agree with the original poster and would not trust blindly the superintendent on a project so big and so complex! And this recommendation comes from a past 20 year certified superintendent.

[Jeff Johnson]

Dave,
I am late to the thread, but to answer your oriiginal question we are currently in the middle of a conversion from poa to bent.  With one year under our belt we have seen on average about a 20% increase in bentgrass per green.  Our club contracted with Greenway Golf and we are thrilled with the results YTD.  100% conversion is not necessarily the goal but at least get to a dominant stand of bentgrass and if the stronger strands of poa feel they can compete with the bentgrass so be it, then they derserve to be in the mix, but we are no longer managing for the lowest common denominator.  We are providing an environment where the bentgrass is favored and it can out compete the poa.  Through the process we have reduced our pesticide and fertilizer bugdets considerably.  There is a long ways to go, but in 3-5 years we should reach our goal and will have never taken the greens out of play and at the same time the members are enjoying quality playing conditions. 
If you call Ron he will attest to the results as he has seen it first hand. 

[Bradley Anderson]

Jeff Johnson,

I'm guessing that your Grounds budget is maybe 20% of the clubs overall budget, and 10% of that is chemicals and fertilizers. So if you reduce chemicals and fertilizers by 70%, the overall savings to the club would be about 1.5% of the total Operating Budget.

 

[Steve Okula]

Jeff,

How much have the savings in ferttilizers and chemicals been offset by the fees to Greenway?

[Jeff Johnson]

To answer both of your questions quickly, cause I've got to get home, the savings has easily paid for the services and then some.  Fert and chem was 10% of our budget and now it is 5%.  How that equates to the overall budget, Bradley I don't have those numbers off hand.  Will those savings continue, time will tell.  For us I was able to reallocate the savings to different line items and we were allowed to maintain the same operating budget from the year before.  Cheers

[Joe Hancock]

I'm not sure how relevant the savings number is if you're truly trying to do the right thing for the long haul, agronomically and fiscally. Anything that reduces inputs and produces a more durable, playable turf has to be good....right?

Brad, I know from previous discussions where you're coming from. There's likely bigger fish to fry, if reducing the overall operating budget of the club is the goal.

Hope everyone is well,

Joe

[Jeff Johnson]

If reducing the overall budget is the goal then that's a different issue there are 20 other items that need consideration.  I'm just speaking from our experience and the philosophy and approach that Greenway has.  If you are asking about converting greens and maintaining density and good playing conditions at the same time then this might be an approach to consider.  A side benefit is reducing inputs and that is never a bad thing especially if playing conditions are not compromised.

[Scott Weersing]

I just read that La Costa is closing for a renovation. http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/sep/20/lpgas-future-at-la-costa-uncertain-after-renovati/

The most interesting thing was, "The new greens will be a bent-grass variety."

Are there any courses in Southern California with bent grass greens?

Will La Costa have the money to keep the poa annua out? Torrey Pines has poa annua greens.

[Dave_Miller]

Hi all,

Looking for some advice from the turf heads out there.  Has anyone ever tried a slow conversion from Poa annua to Bent Grass during a golf season or a winter?  In the Midwest, my understanding is that Poa annua is such an aggressive grass (And we have had it for 89 years) that this would require a complete burn, shutting the greens down for a year and then crossing our fingers but I have read a little about new Bent and technology.  Would love some real world experience.

Thanks,

Dave

David
My recommendation would be don't do it.  It is expensive, shuts down the course, impacts revenue streams in the clubhouse and eventually the Poa returns.  I believe the key to Poa is to manage it and make a good surface in this manner.
Dave

[Chris Tritabaugh]

What I find interesting in this discussion is the number of posts commenting on the "increased cost" of maintain bentgrass over Poa. I must be missing something because I have increase bent populations on all of our playing surfaces over the past two seasons and its has been cheap as hell. From my experience the thought process that bentgrass costs a lot of money to maintain is dead wrong.

[Brian Chapin]

I agree this is really a question for your super, but since you asked....

I manage Poa Greens in the Metro NYC area... Some things I think you should consider are:

First and foremost - how does your super feel about it?  Has he ever done this before?  What grass does he have more experience managing? 

Second - what do you expect to gain from a conversion?  You may save some money on fungicides, but you probably will spend a good portion of your savings on herbicides to fight the re-invasion of Poa.  You will also potentially need new equipment to manage the bentgrass properly such as groomers and verticutters.

Third - Does this even make sense??  Poa is THE BEST putting surface when managed properly.  I don't know anything about your course, but you say it has been there for 89 years... there is a reason for that.  The Poa wants to grow there, it thrives there.  There is a reason that Poa will invade Bentgrass greens - it is a better adapted grass for those conditions.  It is important to remember that it is a living breathing plant and like anything else that is living, the species adapts to its conditions for survival.  Everyone loves to talk about Oakmonts Poa.  You most likely have a very similar situation in that your particular species has adapted to survive in the specific environment you are in.  Newly planted Bentgrass will adapt that way, mostly because the Poa will outcompete it long before it ever got that far.  Also, it sounds like your super is relatively new and that he has done great things in a relatively short time.  Be patient and he will probably surprise you with better greens than you ever thought you could have. 

Fourth - I have yet to find anyone who has successfully converted Poa to Bent without significant growing pains.  You would definitely be fighting an uphill battle.

[Mike Kosak]

I couldn't agree more, Brian. 

His is one of two replies in this thread that says simply "manage the poa".  With the current economy, I personally can't see spending 100's of thousands of dollars to "rid the greens of poa".  I'm convinced that poa could survive an apocalyptic event; what makes us think it will go away?

[igrowgrass]

Who convinced the membership they should switch from Poa to bent?  Would you like the greens to roll at higher stimp numbers?  How high is to high?  I work at a bentgrass golf course in the Pacific Northwest.  It's a runaway train we have been slowing down for ten years. (we have about 5%-8% infestation.)  Poa wants to be there, its going to find a way, it grows in the cracks of highways, so how hard can it be to manage in an improved environment, such as a putting green?  Maybe we should try to understand what the Poa, instead of always trying to eliminate it. 

But we will keep fighting the Poa out, because it is the challenge we have chosen.

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