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Paul_Turner

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Wentworth - changes, video and opinions
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2010, 05:41:20 AM »
Robin

The routing is the most important and that's intact, so I agree that the strategy of most of the holes is similar . But greens are next in importance and you can't change the green complexes that radically and have the same course.  All the old borrows have been wiped out and the short game is different.

The new 16th looks to be just another generically shaped modern green.  Something you'd find at The Celtic Manor.  The old one was super with lots of subtle contour and supposedly one of Els's favourites.  I wonder if, like the 18th, he didn't agree with Caring on this.

The grass choice and presentation of the course makes the shaping look even more more fake. My faith in modern golf course architects hits a new low.

 For all the bluster of having to modernise and toughen it up it looks like the average score hasn't changed much
« Last Edit: May 22, 2010, 05:44:58 AM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Tom Birkert

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Wentworth - changes, video and opinions
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2010, 11:04:42 AM »
I've just seen the 8th on TV. To me it needs changing more than the 18th, it's utterly ridiculous.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Wentworth - changes, video and opinions
« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2010, 11:21:56 AM »
Tom - Yes im watching that now and I agree 8 is all up too high. They interviewed Richard Carling who does not really understand golf he talked that in previous years the stroke average of 18 was only just over 4 and that HE wanted to get the average up to nearly 5. He indicated that the 18th green would be coming up on monday for a facelift and he likened it to tweaking a F1 racing car.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
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Mark Chaplin

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Re: Wentworth - changes, video and opinions
« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2010, 11:53:56 AM »
62 now that is impressive.
Cave Nil Vino

Niall C

  • Total Karma: -2
Re: Wentworth - changes, video and opinions
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2010, 12:07:47 PM »
I wonder if most of the pro's are reluctant to go for the 18th in two because of all of the pre-tournament chat. Once a couple more start going for it I reckon quite a few more will follow suit. As it is it could be argued that it lets guys like Luke Donald who don't bomb the ball to compete.

As an aside, I totally agree with Adrians comments, this course for good or bad will be seen as the example to follow by club committees round the country. Maybe not in anything like the same scale but the ideas will be the same.

Niall

Robin Doodson

Re: Wentworth - changes, video and opinions
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2010, 10:35:19 PM »
62 now that is impressive.
Wasn't a major part of Ernie's brief to toughen the course up? Mr.Caring might want his 6 and a half million back.

Jason Topp

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Wentworth - changes, video and opinions
« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2010, 02:47:14 PM »
Could the changes be a nominee for the biggest architectural crime of the century?

I watched the last round today and thought the course would be torture for the average player and boring as a tournament venue.

Paul_Turner

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Wentworth - changes, video and opinions
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2010, 07:47:54 PM »
Listen to Ernie Els whine:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/golf/europeantour/7756878/Ernie-Els-blasts-fellow-pros-over-Wentworths-West-Course-redesign.html

The funniest part being

"I'd also like to make changes on eight, I don't like the heather on the mounds there."  i.e. he dislikes just about the only addition that's in tune with the oriiginal design.  What about the trees between 8 and 9, was that your genius idea Ernie?

How does he reconcile all the above with this?

Ernie Els said, “I honestly think we’ve succeeded in making a great course even better. Hopefully, Harry Colt is up there somewhere and looking down on us with a nod of approval.”

But now he doesn't appear to give a toss about the original design, it's all about Caring, the tour and his money.

If you can't take the heat Ernie...



« Last Edit: May 23, 2010, 08:05:16 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Sean_A

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Wentworth - changes, video and opinions
« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2010, 05:39:06 AM »
I am not sure what all the fuss is about.  Its not as if the course was a gem before the ridiculous amount spent to toughen it up.  IMO, it is in keeping with the Wentworth image. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Paul_Turner

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Wentworth - changes, video and opinions
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2010, 06:17:02 AM »
Sean

Yes I think the "wentworth image" is the problem.  i.e. flash, corporate and horribly expensive.

It was a better course than the common GCA view. 
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Sean_A

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Wentworth - changes, video and opinions
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2010, 06:36:07 AM »
Sean

Yes I think the "wentworth image" is the problem.  i.e. flash, corporate and horribly expensive.

It was a better course than the common GCA view. 

Paul

I thought the West was a good course, but I haven't seen it in 20 years.  My over-riding impression was the tree congestion so it was never a Colt I was fond of.  The big problem with Wentworth is its location.  Its not nor never likely ever was a top Colt course in the area.  WW was famous because of it's ability to host big events which set it apart from the London other courses, Colt's or not. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Paul_Turner

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Wentworth - changes, video and opinions
« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2010, 06:41:27 AM »
Here's Ernie before the tournament.  Now all of a sudden, the 8th and 18th aren't so fantastic and it was all Caring's idea:

I feel like I can roll it straight into this week's BMW PGA Championship at Wentworth, a tournament that I'm really looking forward to. The Ernie Els Design renovations to the West Course are now complete and since the golf course reopened at the end of March I've heard nothing but positive feedback, both from the Club's members and some of the professionals who have already played practice rounds there. I can't wait to get there and tee it up for myself.

There are a couple of holes, such as the 8th and the 18th, where we've made significant changes and they look fantastic. But the key difference is the new greens and greens' complexes, which have been completely rebuilt to USGA spec to produce the world class putting surfaces that this tournament deserves. We've rebuilt all the bunkers on the golf course as well, so there's a lot more consistency in terms of their appearance and also the playability.


I bet the members are going to find it way to brutal.  Should a course be designed for 4 days without consideration of the other 361?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 06:43:48 AM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Sean_A

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Wentworth - changes, video and opinions
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2010, 07:11:35 AM »
Should a course be designed for 4 days without consideration of the other 361?

No. 

If the finishing scores are anything to go by, WW is a beast and not one I would fancy returning to see.  We also have to remember that these guys had perfect golfing weather.  In poor weather -2/3 could likely have won.  Anyway, the main goal was to toughen the course up and they have.  Unfortunately, almost without fail, the tougher the course is for the pros the less interesting it is to play for regular joes. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Robin Doodson

Re: Wentworth - changes, video and opinions
« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2010, 07:37:28 AM »
Should a course be designed for 4 days without consideration of the other 361?

No. 

If the finishing scores are anything to go by, WW is a beast and not one I would fancy returning to see.  We also have to remember that these guys had perfect golfing weather.  In poor weather -2/3 could likely have won.  Anyway, the main goal was to toughen the course up and they have.  Unfortunately, almost without fail, the tougher the course is for the pros the less interesting it is to play for regular joes. 

Ciao
Karlsson still got it round in 62.

Sean_A

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Wentworth - changes, video and opinions
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2010, 08:58:05 AM »
Should a course be designed for 4 days without consideration of the other 361?

No. 

If the finishing scores are anything to go by, WW is a beast and not one I would fancy returning to see.  We also have to remember that these guys had perfect golfing weather.  In poor weather -2/3 could likely have won.  Anyway, the main goal was to toughen the course up and they have.  Unfortunately, almost without fail, the tougher the course is for the pros the less interesting it is to play for regular joes. 

Ciao
Karlsson still got it round in 62.

I think pro tournies are based on 4 rounds.  Karlsson finished level par.  If anything, in terms of pro tournies, WW did well.  The winning score wasn't crazy, but the course yielded to wonderful golf. I don't see how one can say the changes are a failure considering the goal.  Some folks round here said -18 would still win - not even close and in glorious weather.


Ciao   
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Tim Nugent

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Wentworth - changes, video and opinions
« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2010, 10:14:56 AM »
Here's Ernie before the tournament.  Now all of a sudden, the 8th and 18th aren't so fantastic and it was all Caring's idea:

I feel like I can roll it straight into this week's BMW PGA Championship at Wentworth, a tournament that I'm really looking forward to. The Ernie Els Design renovations to the West Course are now complete and since the golf course reopened at the end of March I've heard nothing but positive feedback, both from the Club's members and some of the professionals who have already played practice rounds there. I can't wait to get there and tee it up for myself.

There are a couple of holes, such as the 8th and the 18th, where we've made significant changes and they look fantastic. But the key difference is the new greens and greens' complexes, which have been completely rebuilt to USGA spec to produce the world class putting surfaces that this tournament deserves. We've rebuilt all the bunkers on the golf course as well, so there's a lot more consistency in terms of their appearance and also the playability.


From London paper;
Els said he would make some changes for the 2011 PGA Championship, particularly the eighth and 18th holes.

"Definitely 18. I can show you the plans I drew for it at the get-go," said Els. "I'd also like to make changes on eight, I don't like the heather on the mounds there. "

"I'd even like to change the eighth green because that's another one I wanted lower. "

I'm confused.  Was Ernie in charrge or not?  Was he vetoed by the Powers that Be? Or...?

Coasting is a downhill process

Paul_Turner

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Wentworth - changes, video and opinions
« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2010, 10:36:11 AM »
Should a course be designed for 4 days without consideration of the other 361?

No. 

If the finishing scores are anything to go by, WW is a beast and not one I would fancy returning to see.  We also have to remember that these guys had perfect golfing weather.  In poor weather -2/3 could likely have won.  Anyway, the main goal was to toughen the course up and they have.  Unfortunately, almost without fail, the tougher the course is for the pros the less interesting it is to play for regular joes. 

Ciao
Karlsson still got it round in 62.

I think pro tournies are based on 4 rounds.  Karlsson finished level par.  If anything, in terms of pro tournies, WW did well.  The winning score wasn't crazy, but the course yielded to wonderful golf. I don't see how one can say the changes are a failure considering the goal.  Some folks round here said -18 would still win - not even close and in glorious weather.


Ciao   

Sean

The course did seem harder but the average/median score for 4 rounds was identical to last year at about: 72

Remember that par was reduced to 71 this year (12th changed). The owner seems to think that alone makes the course harder!
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Niall C

  • Total Karma: -2
Re: Wentworth - changes, video and opinions
« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2010, 02:48:44 PM »
Anytime the camera gave you a shot of the player looking down the fairway to the green it was hard to make out anything on the green, it just looked flat, no doubt accentauted by the elevated nature of the greens. No wonder players had trouble judging distance. It just looked like an exercise of looking up the mileage on the strokesaver. Not a course I would like to play in a hurry.

Niall

Gareth Williams

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Wentworth - changes, video and opinions
« Reply #43 on: May 25, 2010, 03:58:15 AM »
Sean

Yes I think the "wentworth image" is the problem.  i.e. flash, corporate and horribly expensive.

It was a better course than the common GCA view. 



The West was certainly a far better course than it got the credit for - the real "issue" was everything that came with it i.e. Corporate bias of the club/US Country Club style attempt/The European Tour being based in the car park out back/The ugly old clubhouse - all "baggage" that distracted from a fine Surrey Heathland course.

Sean_A

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Wentworth - changes, video and opinions
« Reply #44 on: May 25, 2010, 04:26:56 AM »
Should a course be designed for 4 days without consideration of the other 361?

No. 

If the finishing scores are anything to go by, WW is a beast and not one I would fancy returning to see.  We also have to remember that these guys had perfect golfing weather.  In poor weather -2/3 could likely have won.  Anyway, the main goal was to toughen the course up and they have.  Unfortunately, almost without fail, the tougher the course is for the pros the less interesting it is to play for regular joes. 

Ciao
Karlsson still got it round in 62.

I think pro tournies are based on 4 rounds.  Karlsson finished level par.  If anything, in terms of pro tournies, WW did well.  The winning score wasn't crazy, but the course yielded to wonderful golf. I don't see how one can say the changes are a failure considering the goal.  Some folks round here said -18 would still win - not even close and in glorious weather.


Ciao   

Sean

The course did seem harder but the average/median score for 4 rounds was identical to last year at about: 72

Remember that par was reduced to 71 this year (12th changed). The owner seems to think that alone makes the course harder!


Paul

Even discounting the four shots for the change of par, the course was playing harder indeed.  I think the average winning score over the past 15 years is something like -15.  Don't forget, this event is often played in some nasty weather.  Not this week - it was perfect scoring weather. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Paul_Turner

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Wentworth - changes, video and opinions
« Reply #45 on: May 25, 2010, 07:00:27 AM »
Sean

Yes but I'm not sure that the winning score is the best measure of how difficult the course is.  The winner is a statistical outlier and defined by one player (or just a few tied players) and so vulnerable to random chance i.e  a streaky player or a lackluster final day for a few leaders.

If the course was truly much harder the average score should have shifted up.  With a quick look through the stats it didn't.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Jason Sloan

Re: Wentworth - changes, video and opinions
« Reply #46 on: May 25, 2010, 03:11:10 PM »
They should start with using a bloody architect (and I don't mean Els, I mean his real architect) that has a clue with what he is doing.  

Even if it was the owner's idea to raise the green it is the designer's responsibility to not go with what they want if it is totally wrong.  Anyone who knows a little about architecture knew that the target was too small no matter who you are....

Just a joke that so much money can be used on such a poor design.
Here's Ernie before the tournament.  Now all of a sudden, the 8th and 18th aren't so fantastic and it was all Caring's idea:

I feel like I can roll it straight into this week's BMW PGA Championship at Wentworth, a tournament that I'm really looking forward to. The Ernie Els Design renovations to the West Course are now complete and since the golf course reopened at the end of March I've heard nothing but positive feedback, both from the Club's members and some of the professionals who have already played practice rounds there. I can't wait to get there and tee it up for myself.

There are a couple of holes, such as the 8th and the 18th, where we've made significant changes and they look fantastic. But the key difference is the new greens and greens' complexes, which have been completely rebuilt to USGA spec to produce the world class putting surfaces that this tournament deserves. We've rebuilt all the bunkers on the golf course as well, so there's a lot more consistency in terms of their appearance and also the playability.


From London paper;
Els said he would make some changes for the 2011 PGA Championship, particularly the eighth and 18th holes.

"Definitely 18. I can show you the plans I drew for it at the get-go," said Els. "I'd also like to make changes on eight, I don't like the heather on the mounds there. "

"I'd even like to change the eighth green because that's another one I wanted lower. "

I'm confused.  Was Ernie in charrge or not?  Was he vetoed by the Powers that Be? Or...?

This seems to be a good case vs. hiring professional golfers to be "professional" golf course architects.  It is the responsibility of the architect to design changes that will improve the functionality and playability of the golf course, not to just draw what an owner or investor tells them they want.  I believe the architect should consider the owners desires and come up with creative iterations that incorporate those desires, until a final design that satisfies both is reached.  The architect should be able to convince the owner, through their professional opinion, why their ideas may or may not work and see how another design may be more suitable.  Not that owners don't have good ideas, because conceptually they may, however, it is the job of the architect to evolve that concept into a viable design that can be implemented and function properly.  This is where a professional and experienced golf course architect's expertise becomes more valuable than the name of a professional golfer.  It seems that Els allowed the owner to dictate the "design" instead of helping the owner to realize that, for example, the 8th green should be lower.  At the end of a project an architect shouldn't have a list of changes they would like to make, such as the case of Els at Wentworth, the discrepancies should have been worked out during the design process or even during construction.  Well, at least it is only grass, dirt, sand and water and not steel, concrete and glass.  After all, it would be much harder to go back and lower the height of one level of an 18-story building...   


Tim Pitner

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Wentworth - changes, video and opinions
« Reply #47 on: May 25, 2010, 03:32:02 PM »
I don't know Wentworth--I've only seen it on television--but I was struck by how radically different it appears now (mostly the bunkering, I suppose).  It seems to have gone from an English healthland course to an English parkland course to something that is not English at all.  As has been said, it resembles an American TPC course.  It's a shame (and I tend to root for Ernie Els as a player). 

Adam Lawrence

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Wentworth - changes, video and opinions
« Reply #48 on: May 25, 2010, 04:07:46 PM »
They should start with using a bloody architect (and I don't mean Els, I mean his real architect) that has a clue with what he is doing.  

Even if it was the owner's idea to raise the green it is the designer's responsibility to not go with what they want if it is totally wrong.  Anyone who knows a little about architecture knew that the target was too small no matter who you are....

Just a joke that so much money can be used on such a poor design.
Here's Ernie before the tournament.  Now all of a sudden, the 8th and 18th aren't so fantastic and it was all Caring's idea:

I feel like I can roll it straight into this week's BMW PGA Championship at Wentworth, a tournament that I'm really looking forward to. The Ernie Els Design renovations to the West Course are now complete and since the golf course reopened at the end of March I've heard nothing but positive feedback, both from the Club's members and some of the professionals who have already played practice rounds there. I can't wait to get there and tee it up for myself.

There are a couple of holes, such as the 8th and the 18th, where we've made significant changes and they look fantastic. But the key difference is the new greens and greens' complexes, which have been completely rebuilt to USGA spec to produce the world class putting surfaces that this tournament deserves. We've rebuilt all the bunkers on the golf course as well, so there's a lot more consistency in terms of their appearance and also the playability.


From London paper;
Els said he would make some changes for the 2011 PGA Championship, particularly the eighth and 18th holes.

"Definitely 18. I can show you the plans I drew for it at the get-go," said Els. "I'd also like to make changes on eight, I don't like the heather on the mounds there. "

"I'd even like to change the eighth green because that's another one I wanted lower. "

I'm confused.  Was Ernie in charrge or not?  Was he vetoed by the Powers that Be? Or...?

This seems to be a good case vs. hiring professional golfers to be "professional" golf course architects.  It is the responsibility of the architect to design changes that will improve the functionality and playability of the golf course, not to just draw what an owner or investor tells them they want.  I believe the architect should consider the owners desires and come up with creative iterations that incorporate those desires, until a final design that satisfies both is reached.  The architect should be able to convince the owner, through their professional opinion, why their ideas may or may not work and see how another design may be more suitable.  Not that owners don't have good ideas, because conceptually they may, however, it is the job of the architect to evolve that concept into a viable design that can be implemented and function properly.  This is where a professional and experienced golf course architect's expertise becomes more valuable than the name of a professional golfer.  It seems that Els allowed the owner to dictate the "design" instead of helping the owner to realize that, for example, the 8th green should be lower.  At the end of a project an architect shouldn't have a list of changes they would like to make, such as the case of Els at Wentworth, the discrepancies should have been worked out during the design process or even during construction.  Well, at least it is only grass, dirt, sand and water and not steel, concrete and glass.  After all, it would be much harder to go back and lower the height of one level of an 18-story building...   


Jason - with all due respect, this is a bit of a silly post. Do you think Ernie drew the plans for those greens? Greg Letsche, Els Design's lead golf architect, was the guy who did the real work. The fact that Mr Caring overruled both Greg and Ernie on some elements of the job has got very little to do with which firm was supposedly in charge of the work. And the only way that events would have panned out differently had Caring hired another design firm is if that firm had been prepared to resign the job.

The Wentworth project is proof positive that while an engaged client is vital for doing great work, one can be _too_ engaged!
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Wentworth - changes, video and opinions
« Reply #49 on: May 25, 2010, 04:17:49 PM »
They should start with using a bloody architect (and I don't mean Els, I mean his real architect) that has a clue with what he is doing.  

Even if it was the owner's idea to raise the green it is the designer's responsibility to not go with what they want if it is totally wrong.  Anyone who knows a little about architecture knew that the target was too small no matter who you are....

Just a joke that so much money can be used on such a poor design.
Here's Ernie before the tournament.  Now all of a sudden, the 8th and 18th aren't so fantastic and it was all Caring's idea:

I feel like I can roll it straight into this week's BMW PGA Championship at Wentworth, a tournament that I'm really looking forward to. The Ernie Els Design renovations to the West Course are now complete and since the golf course reopened at the end of March I've heard nothing but positive feedback, both from the Club's members and some of the professionals who have already played practice rounds there. I can't wait to get there and tee it up for myself.

There are a couple of holes, such as the 8th and the 18th, where we've made significant changes and they look fantastic. But the key difference is the new greens and greens' complexes, which have been completely rebuilt to USGA spec to produce the world class putting surfaces that this tournament deserves. We've rebuilt all the bunkers on the golf course as well, so there's a lot more consistency in terms of their appearance and also the playability.


From London paper;
Els said he would make some changes for the 2011 PGA Championship, particularly the eighth and 18th holes.

"Definitely 18. I can show you the plans I drew for it at the get-go," said Els. "I'd also like to make changes on eight, I don't like the heather on the mounds there. "

"I'd even like to change the eighth green because that's another one I wanted lower. "

I'm confused.  Was Ernie in charrge or not?  Was he vetoed by the Powers that Be? Or...?

This seems to be a good case vs. hiring professional golfers to be "professional" golf course architects.  It is the responsibility of the architect to design changes that will improve the functionality and playability of the golf course, not to just draw what an owner or investor tells them they want.  I believe the architect should consider the owners desires and come up with creative iterations that incorporate those desires, until a final design that satisfies both is reached.  The architect should be able to convince the owner, through their professional opinion, why their ideas may or may not work and see how another design may be more suitable.  Not that owners don't have good ideas, because conceptually they may, however, it is the job of the architect to evolve that concept into a viable design that can be implemented and function properly.  This is where a professional and experienced golf course architect's expertise becomes more valuable than the name of a professional golfer.  It seems that Els allowed the owner to dictate the "design" instead of helping the owner to realize that, for example, the 8th green should be lower.  At the end of a project an architect shouldn't have a list of changes they would like to make, such as the case of Els at Wentworth, the discrepancies should have been worked out during the design process or even during construction.  Well, at least it is only grass, dirt, sand and water and not steel, concrete and glass.  After all, it would be much harder to go back and lower the height of one level of an 18-story building...   


Jason - Firstly I am not in favour of all the changes but with the exception of 8 and 18 I would give the thumbs up rather than the thumbs down to the New WENTWORTH as opposed the old one. Lets be honest about things as Sean points out Wentworth was no bright star before, 18 was not even a very good hole, 17 doglegs quite quickly at a strange distance, 16 was a bit blind, 14 an uphill short hole, perhaps you could be critical 10 was too hard maybe, and 7 and 8 were a bit random, being picky theres a bit of invisibility at 3, 5, 7, 9, 11 even 13. We know the greens were poor underneath, 25 years ago then then agronomist Martyn Jones advised them to rebuild but with two lucrative tournaments it was difficult. I can see that some of the greens maybe needed a retouch although I am not keen on the up in the air stuff.

The owner is KING not the architect, the king dictates, the architect is the servant but if he is not happy he should walk. Whilst every architect woud try and convince an owner its not always possible, I have been in this situation.. I walked.

Professional golfers see golf courses different to how we see them. They dont want quirk, they want predictable and they want fair. They hit to numbers now and they want consistent greens that stimp between 10 and 12.  Mainly the just want good greens. TPC courses need to be far more penal than what is fun for a golfer above 3 handicap. I am more and more convinced we cant have golf courses that both can enjoy. If you are designing pr upgrading to a TPC course then the use of an Ernie Els makes a bit of sense as they are more experienced than a traditional golf course architect on their wants bearing mind the incredible change in pro golf ability in the last 10 years.

As for Wentworth and the need to toughen it up, well 10 under won in old money (12 being a 4), the greens were not perfect and unknown to all players, I woud say 18 played 2 shots harder over 4 rounds and 17 perhaps 1. The Old course had the abillity to keep you intrested in the tournament because a player could finish 3-3 or 6-6. A 6 shot potential drama at the finish line IMO was the real plus in Wentworth and thats been taken away. Perhaps 18 could work with the stream back somewhere between 5  and 10 metres and maybe that would restore a spectators intrest, 18 just took away the option as it was.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
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