Wentworth - changes, video and opinions

[Brian Phillips]

I thought I would post a couple of links on here regarding the changes to Wentworth.  Interesting to see the two different opinions of Paul Casey who has won here and Padraig Harrington who has not won here. 

http://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/season=2010/tournamentid=2010028/videoaudio/videoid=122036.html

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/golf/article7131228.ece

"The result is something that looks flash, but is a golfing nonsense. A perfectly good par five has been turned into a bash, a lay-up and a pitch across water. It might as well be a par three. They spent half a million quid on an aquatic folly – there goes the winner, not waving, but drowning." - Mark Reason, The Telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/golf/europeantour/7741916/Ernie-Els-new-18th-hole-at-Wentworth-is-a-ghastly-sell-out.html

[Adrian_Stiff]

They have not shown the 18th yet on BBC but what they have shown so far of the first 11 looks okay.

[Garland Bayley]

...
"The result is something that looks flash, but is a golfing nonsense. A perfectly good par five has been turned into a bash, a lay-up and a pitch across water. It might as well be a par three. They spent half a million quid on an aquatic folly – there goes the winner, not waving, but drowning." - Mark Reason, The Telegraph
...

"Having achieved an understanding regards the game, what do we get, bloody water hazards, Greens surrounded in water, just what the hell is good in a course with water hazards. They are no good to man or beast and quite frankly can kill the thrill of a game of golf stone dead." Melvyn Morrow 7/15/09

[Marty Bonnar]

Bitten by his own watery filth. How splendid!

FBD.

[Adrian_Stiff]

With the exception of 18, which is just too difficult to normally attempt in two shots unless u zing the drive with some right hand thread, its a general thumbs up to the changes.

I think 18 will get toned over the next year or so, then largely its all ok for the pro's.

For the normal golfer it will be too difficut but at $500 per round 'a tour test' is probably the $500 experience they want.

[Brian Phillips]

Adrian,

I agree with you about the 18th.  The problem with the hole is that it has become too risky to go for the green in two.  The reward is not great enough in relation to the risk.

It has become as the a lay up hole rather than an attacking hole.  If a player coming down the stretch on Sunday needs a birdie to tie on the 18th he will lay up and try to put his wedge as close as possible whereas in the old days the would have gone for the green in two hoping for an eagle.  The old green was very tricky to putt on and depending on where you put your second shot you could have a very slippery downhill putt from the back of the green.

That is not going to happen with this green.

I would like to know how many of the birdies today actually came from 2nd shots hitting the green and 2 putting or bunker and 1 putt.  Did anyone see players getting birdies from going for the green in two?

The modernising of the course may look good for TV but the bunkering is just the same as any trendy modern bunkering that is going on all over the world at the moment.  I preferred the old Colt look but then I am a traditionalist.

[Robin Doodson]

Adrian,

I agree with you about the 18th.  The problem with the hole is that it has become too risky to go for the green in two.  The reward is not great enough in relation to the risk.

It has become as the a lay up hole rather than an attacking hole.  If a player coming down the stretch on Sunday needs a birdie to tie on the 18th he will lay up and try to put his wedge as close as possible whereas in the old days the would have gone for the green in two hoping for an eagle.  The old green was very tricky to putt on and depending on where you put your second shot you could have a very slippery downhill putt from the back of the green.

That is not going to happen with this green.

I would like to know how many of the birdies today actually came from 2nd shots hitting the green and 2 putting or bunker and 1 putt.  Did anyone see players getting birdies from going for the green in two?

The modernising of the course may look good for TV but the bunkering is just the same as any trendy modern bunkering that is going on all over the world at the moment.  I preferred the old Colt look but then I am a traditionalist.

Richard Green commented after hitting it to 12 feet on the last that he had to hit the shot of his life. In other words he took a risk and got a reward. previously there was no risk whatsoever going for the green. worst case scenario you would have an easy up and down from a bunker for birdie. could be very exciting on sunday if someone needs eagle to tie or win.

Congratulations to Chris Kennedy and the team on getting the course in great nick after such a horrid winter.

robin

[Adrian_Stiff]

Robin - Great point about Chris Kennedy and his team have got this in such great nick against the weather. I bet he had some sleepless nights a few months back.

I only watched it in and out. Marc Warren was the only 3 at the last, he was +6 at the time, his 3 almost does not count (I assume he was on the green in 2) since he had no pressure. Molinari went in with a hybrid to about 20 feet with a good score. Ernie had a go at -3 and went in the water, I wondered if he fet OBLIGED to go for it.

All in all the changes seem better than I had feared and even 18 is not as bad. I suspect thart stream might get moved back 5 metres.

[Ben Stephens]

The course looks ok - it is now an another clone of the latest bunch of tour courses touch ups. Having watched the golf on TV yesterday the way some people are playing the course is now different to the old Burma Road. 17 and 18 were great eagle chances but now the players are backing off, laying up and then hitting wedges as it is easier this way to get birdie. The biggest peeve I have is the new raised greens, especially on 9 and 12, and the small front bunker on 16 which take away the running shot into the greens which makes the course a bit one dimensional with the aerial game. Colt will turn his grave seeing these changes which takes away the variety of options he asks a golfer.

The construction team and greens staff should have a pat on their shoulders with the work they have done - it looks very good. Course design wise is questionable. I would definitely get rid of the water feature on 18!!

[Brian Phillips]

All in all the changes seem better than I had feared and even 18 is not as bad. I suspect thart stream might get moved back 5 metres.

Adrian,

I disagree with you about the changes but each to their own. Your design work seems to be quite similar when comparing the water and style of shoring that has been used at Wentworth and for example your course at the The Players Club.

I agree that the stream will be pulled back in later years to allow a hybrid or wood to bump into a grass bank and run up to a flag position.  The approach is too small and too penal at the moment.

[Paul_Turner]

The course just looks phony with the new greens sitting on the land rather than blending in. 

Caring/Els/Letsche have made such a pigs ear of the course that I'm hoping it'll act as an emblem of what not to do and for UK clubs to value their heritage more. 

[Brian Phillips]

The course just looks phony with the new greens sitting on the land rather than blending in. 

Caring/Els/Letsche have made such a pigs ear of the course that I'm hoping it'll act as an emblem of what not to do and for UK clubs to value their heritage more. 

Paul,

The problem is that it looks very good on TV.  Nice green healthy turf, bright sand and lots of water....all Augusta like just as Els was quoted at trying to make it the European Augusta.  The normal golfer will love it.

[Tom Birkert]

Sky are, predictably, lauding the course.

I would have loved to have seen them interview someone from the design team, or Wentworth, and ask them what these changes have in common with what Colt originally did.

If you like American style golf in the English heathland then it's fine.

But it has nothing to do with Colt and it has no relevance to its surroundings.

I would take a round at Wentworth East over TPC Wentworth any day of the week.

[Ally Mcintosh]

So, here is an article from the BBC which has Lee Westwood criticising the changes... There are a few noteworthy points but two things jumped out at me:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/golf/8696098.stm

1. A £6.5m course revamp... Please tell me that some of that money went on things other than the direct re-construction of the course... Some facilities maybe...

2. Westwood says that the 18th cries out for "a green in the opposite direction", presumably meaning angling front left to back right... Do you agree?

[Brian Phillips]

Ally,

It is just a very poorly designed greensite with very few options available for the good player.  The trees on the right block any chance of hitting a high looping draw to run onto the green and the way the neck of the foregreen has been tightened is scarily bad.

It is too risky to float a high cut due to the angle of the stream and the green.

"Olly's hit a career shot there and it's not even stayed on the green," said Westwood. "You can tell by how excited the crowd got with that one, how hard that second shot is."

This just about sums what I was trying to describe the other day.  It really is a poor design, they have tried to fit in way too much in that tight space. A stream (a wide one at that), an elevated green, bunkers at the back, wood shoring....it has been "pimped" and "blinged" up when a littel more subtlety would have worked.

A lower green, a wide run up on the foregreen to take the heat off a wood and easier shaped or angled green would have achieved so much more that what is there.

[Tom Birkert]

Richard Caring has just stated that it is "The finest inland golf course in Europe".

That's some claim (it's also patently wrong but never mind).

[Martin Toal]

I was at the PGA today, and while the 18th is a dramatic hole, I don't think it is a great one, and I am sure some changes wil be made in due course.

The rolloff to the right of the green also seems a bit overdone.

That said, it provided some excitement when Stenson hit his second shot from the left side fairway bunker and carried straight onto the green. Missed his eagle putt, though.

[Adrian_Stiff]

All in all the changes seem better than I had feared and even 18 is not as bad. I suspect thart stream might get moved back 5 metres.

Adrian,

I disagree with you about the changes but each to their own. Your design work seems to be quite similar when comparing the water and style of shoring that has been used at Wentworth and for example your course at the The Players Club.

I agree that the stream will be pulled back in later years to allow a hybrid or wood to bump into a grass bank and run up to a flag position.  The approach is too small and too penal at the moment.

Brian, I am not really in favour of the changes. If it was my call I would have just built new USGA greens more or less on the sites as are/were. I suppose I would have put some flatter areas and distinct pinning areas in many. 18 no water and I think 12 is up too high IMO. Whilst sleepered up lakes and tees is part of how I have designed courses if I had 'and old un' like Wentworth, I would be sympathetic.

[Ben Stephens]

Just seen an interview with Ross Fisher on Sky. It was said that Richard Caring has admitted his mistake about the 18th and it would be redesigned by Ernie Els again!. Is this true??? I hope so! 

[Adam Lawrence]

I was there today; my view of the changes should be pretty obvious from the piece I did in Golf World a few months ago.

Some of it is not bad at all. I really like what they've done to the seventeenth green complex, and there will be a lot of fun when they put the pin right next to the drop-off on the right. There were some great recovery shots around that green today; they haven't eliminated the chance to go for it in two, but they have made it more interesting.

Eight I hate. From the normal tees it hasn't changed the hole in any meaningful way for the big boys - it's still a 2 iron layup followed by a wedge. I am assuming, given that there are two new-looking and perfectly striped tee decks about 90-100 yards in front of the back markers, that they'll play it as a potentially driveable hole over the weekend. But I just can't see anyone going for it in a medal event. The green is so far up the air it looks daft.

The redesigned third green is an improvement I think.

And the eighteenth is being revealed as a mistake. Today (and yesterday, according to the marshall I spoke to) they played the hole from about 510 yards. And yet very few people were going for the green in two. It's just a poor calculation of risk and reward. Why would you try to hit a long iron or hybrid into such a tiny target when you can lay up and trust your wedge game? A number of the players who did take on the second shot seemed to be trying to land in the back bunker for an easier up and down.

I would rather they went in the opposite direction and made the course more open and more akin to how it would have been in the Twenties, but that isn't going to happen. But if the risk-reward balance is out of whack for the pros, what's it going to be like for ordinary golfers?

It also desperately needs some tree surgery in places. I had forgotten how many holes at Wentworth were doglegs where the only sensible place to put your drive is on the outside. And yet - for example between the eighth and ninth - at the moment, they are planting trees!

[James Boon]

Just seen an interview with Ross Fisher on Sky. It was said that Richard Caring has admitted his mistake about the 18th and it would be redesigned by Ernie Els again!. Is this true??? I hope so! 

Bam Bam,

Just spotted this on the BBC website...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/golf/8698293.stm

Seems that TPC Wentworth (TM Tom Birkert, good one Tom) may be getting a nip and tuck after this years event?

Cheers,

James

[Jon Wiggett]

All in all the changes seem better than I had feared and even 18 is not as bad. I suspect thart stream might get moved back 5 metres.

Adrian,

I disagree with you about the changes but each to their own. Your design work seems to be quite similar when comparing the water and style of shoring that has been used at Wentworth and for example your course at the The Players Club.

I agree that the stream will be pulled back in later years to allow a hybrid or wood to bump into a grass bank and run up to a flag position.  The approach is too small and too penal at the moment.

Brian, I am not really in favour of the changes. If it was my call I would have just built new USGA greens more or less on the sites as are/were. I suppose I would have put some flatter areas and distinct pinning areas in many. 18 no water and I think 12 is up too high IMO. Whilst sleepered up lakes and tees is part of how I have designed courses if I had 'and old un' like Wentworth, I would be sympathetic.

How about filling the stream in to leave a swale with a steepish incline up to the green to allow the player to hit a running fade in?

[Brian Phillips]

They should start with using a bloody architect (and I don't mean Els, I mean his real architect) that has a clue with what he is doing.  

Even if it was the owner's idea to raise the green it is the designer's responsibility to not go with what they want if it is totally wrong.  Anyone who knows a little about architecture knew that the target was too small no matter who you are....

Just a joke that so much money can be used on such a poor design.

[Mike Cirba]

I just saw a smidgeon on tv but enough that I feel confident stating that Harry's slow spin is now up to 10,000 rpm's.

[Robin Doodson]

i think everyone is really overstating this rebuild. it is essentially exactly the same golf course which has had some of the flaws removed. the old third green for one was rebuilt a number of years ago and was absolutely ridiculous. the 16th green suffered the same fate and had a horrible addition to the back of the green which is well rid of. The new 18th is nearly a great hole. if they had only started the burn across the fairway a little further back from the green there would have been a nice landing area to aim a high draw at the right edge of the green. this is much the way the old 18th used to play without any real risk. having said that, wentworth is only usually dry enough for about 2 weeks of the year for the ball to actually bounce so it might as well be designed to be played through the air.

robin