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JNC Lyon

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Renaissance Club
« on: May 20, 2010, 12:12:07 AM »
I got the opportunity to play Tom Doak's Renaissance Club during my recent trip to Scotland.  I know a few other GCAers played the course and may have comments/photos to share about the course, so I wanted to get a thread started on it.  There is very little out here about Renaissance in the way of reviews, photos and comments, and I think this would be a good opportunity to get some frank reviews and discussion going about the course. 

I, for one, loved the golf course.  It was my first Doak, and I was thrilled by just about every aspect of it.  Renaissance is a big modern design, but it is also very subtle.  The strategies are not immediately obvious off the tee, and many of them vary depending on the day's hole location.  Like any great course, the greens at Renaissance are the highlight.  A golfer has to have command of his short game to score well here.  Additionally, it takes really takes many plays to understand the greens.  Most of the greens are very wild and difficult to putt.  However, the greens' contours are usually disguised from the fairway due to the natural, low-profile construction of the greens.  A golfer will ascertain where to place the ball around the greens based on memory rather than sight.  I've never seen anything quite like the greens at Renaissance, and I loved every minute of them.

I wll post a bigger review of Renaissance Club and its merits later.  For now, let's see some discussion and photos of Doak's new layout in East Lothian!
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Renaissance Club
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2010, 02:33:43 AM »
This thread might interest you, John...

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40750.0/

Simon Holt

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Re: Renaissance Club
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2010, 09:39:34 AM »
Things have moved on quite a bit since that article Ally.  The new holes planning is still on going but the buckthorn has been removed and the ground is fantastic.  Exciting times.

The conditioning is fantastic, greens still a little on the slow side, but East Lothian was still getting ground frost until last week so Paul and his crew are protecting them.

22'C here today.  The rough will be jumping up everywhere!  Off to battle the West Links!
2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Renaissance Club
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2010, 09:55:54 AM »
Things have moved on quite a bit since that article Ally.  The new holes planning is still on going but the buckthorn has been removed and the ground is fantastic.  Exciting times.

The conditioning is fantastic, greens still a little on the slow side, but East Lothian was still getting ground frost until last week so Paul and his crew are protecting them.

22'C here today.  The rough will be jumping up everywhere!  Off to battle the West Links!

Has some initial planning been granted then, Simon?... It surely must if the buckthorn has been removed...

The Renaissance Club, partly because it's private and partly because it's quite subtle, has been a slow burner in the public's imagination... If those 3 new holes go ahead, I imagine they will probably have all the mainstream sources wowing about it...

Scott Warren

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Re: Renaissance Club
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2010, 12:35:43 PM »
I have some pics of the land that is being used for the new holes, which I will post in due course.

I had a ball playing TRC. The greens, width and bunkering are combined really well, IMO. Just wonderful golf holes with playful green complexes and masses of short grass.

I've read comments by people saying Tom's weakness as a designer is par fives, and I have read Tom say he often uses three-shotters over lesser land so that land affects the fewest holes possible, but the set at TRC was super fun and varied.

I could have spent days just chipping, pitching and putting around the greens. The likes of 3, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 15, 16 and 17 were amazing.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 12:45:07 PM by Scott Warren »

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Renaissance Club
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2010, 12:44:15 PM »


I've read comments by people saying Tom's weakness as a designer is par fives, and I have read Tom say he often uses three-shotters over lesser land so that land affects the fewest holes possible, but the set at TRC was super fun and varied.


The approach to the Par-5 tenth is really very cool indeed... I liked 6 as well... Was less keen on 14 I think...

Andrew Mitchell

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Re: Renaissance Club
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2010, 01:17:57 PM »

I had a ball playing TRC... I could have spent days just chipping, pitching and putting around the greens.

You really do need a hot short game to score well at Renaissance.  I felt like I did spend days chipping, pitching and putting - a duffed chip here, a three putt there  :(

I've also got some photos to upload at some stage.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 01:19:40 PM by Andrew Mitchell »
2014 to date: not actually played anywhere yet!
Still to come: Hollins Hall; Ripon City; Shipley; Perranporth; St Enodoc

Bill_McBride

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Re: Renaissance Club
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2010, 03:11:51 PM »
I have some pics of the land that is being used for the new holes, which I will post in due course.

Scott, is that the land you can see toward the beach from behind the 5th green at Muirfield?

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Renaissance Club
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2010, 03:34:25 PM »
I have some pics of the land that is being used for the new holes, which I will post in due course.

Scott, is that the land you can see toward the beach from behind the 5th green at Muirfield?

Bill,

Most of that land is owned by HCEG... but right along at the far end, Renaissnce have what is maybe 30 acres... Tom's new Par-3 plays right along the boundary with the Muirfield land and then there's a bit of Renaissance land in some wild dunes by the sea that isn't being used...

Scott Warren

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Re: Renaissance Club
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2010, 03:50:03 PM »
Renaissance got the new acreage in a land swap with HCEG, which needed extra space further inland to extend its 9th hole.

Much of the land TRC acquired is protected and can't be used at this stage, I am told, but the stretch that has been cleared and is planned for usage is brilliant land.

I'll try to post the pics tomorrow.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 04:22:07 PM by Scott Warren »

Simon Holt

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Re: Renaissance Club
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2010, 05:48:13 PM »
Things have moved on quite a bit since that article Ally.  The new holes planning is still on going but the buckthorn has been removed and the ground is fantastic.  Exciting times.

The conditioning is fantastic, greens still a little on the slow side, but East Lothian was still getting ground frost until last week so Paul and his crew are protecting them.

22'C here today.  The rough will be jumping up everywhere!  Off to battle the West Links!

Has some initial planning been granted then, Simon?... It surely must if the buckthorn has been removed...

The Renaissance Club, partly because it's private and partly because it's quite subtle, has been a slow burner in the public's imagination... If those 3 new holes go ahead, I imagine they will probably have all the mainstream sources wowing about it...

The authorities are paying other courses to remove buckthorn all along this coastline so that was always going to be granted.  Very much watch this space at the moment.  Lots of ideas flying around.....
2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Renaissance Club
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2010, 06:29:09 PM »
I have some pics of the land that is being used for the new holes, which I will post in due course.

Scott, is that the land you can see toward the beach from behind the 5th green at Muirfield?

Bill,

Most of that land is owned by HCEG... but right along at the far end, Renaissnce have what is maybe 30 acres... Tom's new Par-3 plays right along the boundary with the Muirfield land and then there's a bit of Renaissance land in some wild dunes by the sea that isn't being used...

I thought there was a swap of land involved.   ???

edit:  Whoops, just saw Scott's post.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Renaissance Club
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2010, 02:42:31 AM »
I have some pics of the land that is being used for the new holes, which I will post in due course.

Scott, is that the land you can see toward the beach from behind the 5th green at Muirfield?

Bill,

Most of that land is owned by HCEG... but right along at the far end, Renaissnce have what is maybe 30 acres... Tom's new Par-3 plays right along the boundary with the Muirfield land and then there's a bit of Renaissance land in some wild dunes by the sea that isn't being used...

I thought there was a swap of land involved.   ???

edit:  Whoops, just saw Scott's post.

No Bill,

What Scott says is true but not what you are asking... Most of the land you see from Muirfield still belongs to Muirfield... It is only land at the far end which now belongs to Renaissance (as part of an earlier land swap)... I spent a few hours walking the new land (and boundary) last August and trying my own 3-hole routing, along with the EIGCA students...

As mentioned on the other thread that I linked to in the second post, the boundary line is actually quite awkward for using all the land available... It heads toward the sea from the current 12th tee (along which line Tom has routed a Par-3), then turns back towards Muirfiled along the line of a dune slack parallel with the sea... In this land, there are dramatic dunes belonging to The Renaissance Club that have not been used, I am assuming because it would be impossible to get golf holes in and out of them... The land available is fairly narrow...

Simon Holt sounds like he is in the know with developments so there may have been changes (may even have been further land swaps talked about)... but I'd be surprised if anything has changed with Tom's routing because that is what has been submitted for planning...

Ross Tuddenham

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Re: Renaissance Club
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2010, 05:49:06 AM »
“There is very little out here about Renaissance in the way of reviews, photos and comments”


Maybe because hardly anyone can play it?

I have enquired a few times about a round and have always been told to sling it, or advised about the bond you can by for membership.

I asked a group of keen golfers what they thought about the renaissance club and to my surprise they did not know what I was talking about.  This backs up what Ally said about it being a slow burner.

I wonder if it is only us GCA geeks that know the significance of it being a Doak, or even that it is a Doak?  Not sure he is a well known name to most Scottish golfers.

Simon Holt

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Re: Renaissance Club
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2010, 09:20:00 AM »
“There is very little out here about Renaissance in the way of reviews, photos and comments”


Maybe because hardly anyone can play it?

I have enquired a few times about a round and have always been told to sling it, or advised about the bond you can by for membership.

I asked a group of keen golfers what they thought about the renaissance club and to my surprise they did not know what I was talking about.  This backs up what Ally said about it being a slow burner.

I wonder if it is only us GCA geeks that know the significance of it being a Doak, or even that it is a Doak?  Not sure he is a well known name to most Scottish golfers.


Ross,

No one is ever told to 'sling it'.  The club has a once only pay and play policy.  You can pay £200 per golfer and that is refunded if you join the club.  I know the model is a strange one for the UK but you can actually access the course and for SERIOUS potential members this is not an issue.  It is worth every penny.

They want as many people to enjoy the course as possible but have to respect the fact that others have already paid upto £60000 to have an private course in Scotland
Simon
2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

Ross Tuddenham

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Re: Renaissance Club
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2010, 09:36:49 AM »
Simon

Ok i can't remember the exact content of the email but it did not contain the offer of playing a round.   

Simon Holt

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Re: Renaissance Club
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2010, 10:03:29 AM »
Try again.  Be honest- say you have no intention of joining (assuming thats the case) and that you have heard you can play a once only round.  David Armitage is the pro.  01620 850901  I will be amazed if he turns you away.

In my limited experience I have found the best way to approach these situations is to be honest and then people will take you at face value.  Renaissance has dozens of people claiming to be potential members that obviously are not.

You sound like someone who is a keen golfer and would love to see the course.  You will not be turned away but there will be a high price tag involved.  I can guarantee this will cease to exist once the membership is up at the numbers the owners will be happy with.  You cant say fairer than that.....

Back to the golf course though- hopefully Scott will get the pics up soon.
2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

Scott Warren

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Re: Renaissance Club
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2010, 12:53:06 PM »
The golf course!

Heading to Renaissance was a slightly weird experience. For starters I had never played a Tom Doak golf course before and the limited info on the Renaissance Club website and on here meant I'd not seen every hole from 15 different camera angles, so I had no idea what to expect.

The anticipation as a result was immense, and maybe in future I won't look at courses so encyclopaedically before I play them. It was fun to see a feature - a green or a bunker or a great piece of land - and be genuinely struck by it, rather than just thinking "oh yeah, there's the false front I read about".

I knew to expect width, but just how much there was shocked me a bit. It was awesome. There are a lot of lies on relatively benign ground in the cut stuff that you look up at the green and realise you are well out of position. There are sufficient slopes around and within most greens that you can play a brilliant recovery to get back in the game, but of course those greens are so playfully difficult that anything less than great shot planning and execution will be punished further.

I say "playfully" difficult because even when you are having your heart broken by them, they are just a delight to play. If I just said "difficult" that would give the wrong impression. Generally I found the slopes separated pretty sedate sections of green, and the edges often fed the ball away and down into a chipping area, but on several greens there were backboards or sideboards that could be used to feed the ball towards the hole.

If you hit an approach into the same sector of the green as the pin, the putts had surprisingly little break in them. Speaking from my own experience and listening to our forecaddie discuss lines with Andrew and Mike, rarely did such a putt have more than a couple of balls worth of break, a foot or so perhaps on a 20-30 footer. The massive break came when you'd played your approach or recovery shot to the wrong area of the green.

Approaching the greens, while the slopes were pretty major in many sections, often the transition from flattish areas to slopes was so gradual that it was hard to decipher from 150 yards or so away just where the area you could land and stop the ball ended and where the rollercoaster ride off the green and perhaps into a bunker began. That bit me a few times, but I was really impressed by it.

That was just part of the subtlety that was evident at Renaissance and will ensure its members find an endlessly engaging experience playing the course for years.

The front nine definitely has the flatter land, but for mine those holes held their own against those on the back more blessed with undulation.

The tees vary massively from about 7400 yards from the blues to 6800ish from the whites and 6250 or so from the yellows. We played a mixture. One thing I would say is that it's a course where you should choose your tees wisely. There is some fantastic interest off the tee that you could miss the enjoyment of by playing too far back or forward.

One play does not an expert make, but that was my feeling, for what it's worth.

Now for some pictures.

1st hole - straightaway mid-length par four

The cool thing about the start of the round is that the first tee is part of the practice putting green.

The opening hole was a pretty good statement of intent of what was to follow: a wide fairway, but advantage to be gained if you took on the fairway bunkers. A centreline greenfront bunker meant that pin position should be considered from the tee. The green had some healthy breaks, but was probably among the more sedate greens.

I mentioned the greenfront centreline bunker. It was the first of many features I noted that looked as though they'd keep the course fresh for members and maintain the interest and challenge from round to round.

The drive:


Approach from the RHS:


The green:

JNC Lyon

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Re: Renaissance Club
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2010, 08:24:24 PM »
I had a few thoughts on the first hole.  First, I thought this was a very cool hole.  It certainly is not the most dramatic or the toughest hole at Renaissance.  However, I love the look, deception, and strategy of the opening tee shot.  All the golfer sees is a ribbon of fairway going directly to the green between fairway bunkers on both sides.  A front greenside bunker guards the direct line to the hole in most cases.  You think, "hit it right at the flag and hit it straight."  Yet once you walk up the fairway, you see that there is a hidden swath of short grass over the nest of fairway bunkers on the left.  The golfer will not believe standing on the tee since this stretch of fairway is away from the direct line.  However, any tee ball that travels over 220 yards will find this fairway.  Furthermore, finding this patch of fairway will give the golfer the best line into hole locations placed on the right side of the green.

I loved this opening tee shot and its hidden line of play.  It reminded of another opening hole I have played: the 1st at Garden City Men's Club.  Here, there is alternate fairway hidden amongst the sand and fescue grass that is wider than the visible fairway and provides the best angle of attack.  I know Tom Doak is a fan of Garden City, and I wonder if the first at GCGC was an inspiration for the first at Renaissance.

I also loved the bunkering on this flatter part of the golf course.  It hugs the ground, and it is unlike anything I had seen before.  I appreciated the bunker placement and construction throughout, but I thought the bunkering on the first three holes was more unique than that on the rest of the course.

This brings me to my final point.  I understand that the club wants to take the first three holes, which occupy the most uninteresting terrain on the property, out of the normal rotation when it builds the new holes closer to the seaside.  However, I thought these first three holes, especially the opener, were very cool.  It would be very tough to cast off these holes from my golf course.  I think the setting of the first tee on the practice putting green and the wonder of the opening tee shot make the first a fantastic starter, and it would be a shame to see it relegated to practice hole status in the future.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

JNC Lyon

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Re: Renaissance Club
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2010, 08:39:28 PM »
“There is very little out here about Renaissance in the way of reviews, photos and comments”


Maybe because hardly anyone can play it?

Most of the great American courses have similar levels of exclusivity as Renaissance, yet many people manage to play these clubs and discuss them on this site.  I would venture the reason is a combination of the course's accessibility, location, and age.  Threads on this site have given very good advice about how to gain access to such courses, and they are spot on.

I have enquired a few times about a round and have always been told to sling it, or advised about the bond you can by for membership.

I asked a group of keen golfers what they thought about the renaissance club and to my surprise they did not know what I was talking about.  This backs up what Ally said about it being a slow burner.

I wonder if it is only us GCA geeks that know the significance of it being a Doak, or even that it is a Doak?  Not sure he is a well known name to most Scottish golfers.
Isn't this true everywhere, not just Scotland?


   
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Simon Holt

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Re: Renaissance Club
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2010, 03:39:41 AM »
I love the first too.  I am a fan of an opening hole that eases you into the round so while this hole is not too demanding on length it does play with your mind as it is arguable the 'tightest' off the tee.  Thats is until you see the hidden fairway behind the rough and bunkers on the left.

Clever use of layering which reminds me of holes like the 4th at Cypress purely in terms of the technique used to intimidate the golfer- if thats the right word.  We all know how much MacKenzie was master of the art of camoflague and perhaps this is a trait that Tom has been influenced by in his research and readings of the good Doctor.  Thats can also be said of a lot of the holes at RC when you look back from the green- hardly a bunker to be seen!
2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

Gary Slatter

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Re: Renaissance Club
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2010, 10:38:43 AM »
John
I got to play Renaissance twice and a half last July in the Renaissance Cup, invited by Rich Goodale. 
It was raining heavily most of the time, and Rich and I lost our match very quickly;  both of these may compromise my opinions.

David Armitage and his staff were excellent! loved the range and the way the first tee is incorporated into it.

My opinion of the course, without checking my notes:

1.  too difficult to find out where the wide fairway actually is.  played it three times (pars) and still not sure where to aim.
2.  a superb long par three requiring a ground approach, would be sad to lose this hole when 3 newbies are in place
3.  can't remember too much other than a tee shot over the bunker on the right is not a good place to be, hidden fescue
4.  excellent green and surrounds, best on course
5.  avoid bunkers on left
6.  nice driving hole, some pesky small over-grown bunkers in left must be avoided, boring green
7.  nice lay-up hole but you can drive it if you want, good green and surrounds
8.  back towards clubhouse, can't remember much except wide fairway and like 18
9.  excellent par three, thought it was 10th hole for some reason
10. good Canadian par five, better the second time once you see the green and surrounds
11. and 12.  uphill par fours, good but not memorable
I assume this is where the new holes will fit.  Reminds me of CRAIL.
13. good par 3, wide green
14.  weak par five hole playing over a rise to a downhill green sitting on the ground.  a mound short of the green seems to deflect balls away from the green which is fine
15.  good par four, uphill, not as much room off the tee as we thought
16. sorry, can't recall the hole
17.  good par three, excellent green and surrounds
18.  same as 9 as I recall

If it were in the US or Canada I would give it the same marks as I give Beacon Hall  6/10.   Interestingly RC reminded me of Robert Cupp's Beacon Hall all the way round. When I asked my friend Jay Lilge "What course did it remind you of?"    "Beacon Hall"

As it is in UK and next to Muirfield I give it a 5/10.  It needs some kind of sizzle, the subtlety was lost during the visit (was it the heavy rain?).  The three new holes might be the ticket.
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Bill_McBride

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Re: Renaissance Club
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2010, 11:41:19 AM »
John
I got to play Renaissance twice and a half last July in the Renaissance Cup, invited by Rich Goodale. 
It was raining heavily most of the time, and Rich and I lost our match very quickly;  both of these may compromise my opinions.

David Armitage and his staff were excellent! loved the range and the way the first tee is incorporated into it.

My opinion of the course, without checking my notes:

1.  too difficult to find out where the wide fairway actually is.  played it three times (pars) and still not sure where to aim.
2.  a superb long par three requiring a ground approach, would be sad to lose this hole when 3 newbies are in place
3.  can't remember too much other than a tee shot over the bunker on the right is not a good place to be, hidden fescue
4.  excellent green and surrounds, best on course
5.  avoid bunkers on left
6.  nice driving hole, some pesky small over-grown bunkers in left must be avoided, boring green
7.  nice lay-up hole but you can drive it if you want, good green and surrounds
8.  back towards clubhouse, can't remember much except wide fairway and like 18
9.  excellent par three, thought it was 10th hole for some reason
10. good Canadian par five, better the second time once you see the green and surrounds
11. and 12.  uphill par fours, good but not memorable
I assume this is where the new holes will fit.  Reminds me of CRAIL.
13. good par 3, wide green
14.  weak par five hole playing over a rise to a downhill green sitting on the ground.  a mound short of the green seems to deflect balls away from the green which is fine
15.  good par four, uphill, not as much room off the tee as we thought
16. sorry, can't recall the hole
17.  good par three, excellent green and surrounds
18.  same as 9 as I recall

If it were in the US or Canada I would give it the same marks as I give Beacon Hall  6/10.   Interestingly RC reminded me of Robert Cupp's Beacon Hall all the way round. When I asked my friend Jay Lilge "What course did it remind you of?"    "Beacon Hall"

As it is in UK and next to Muirfield I give it a 5/10.  It needs some kind of sizzle, the subtlety was lost during the visit (was it the heavy rain?).  The three new holes might be the ticket.


Gary, what is a "Canadian par 5?"

Gary Slatter

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Re: Renaissance Club
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2010, 02:01:46 PM »
Bill
sorry, a Canadian par five is one with trees on both sides, reachable in two but frought with danger around the green, bumpy fairway. 
strictly my opinion but the 10th reminded me of playing in Canada.
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

JNC Lyon

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Re: Renaissance Club
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2010, 02:33:19 PM »
Gary,

Interesting comments all the way around.  I'll probably address your hole-by-hole comments as Scott posts more photos.

On the first hole, doesn't the uncertainty of the tee shot make the hole?  The whole idea is to convince yourself that there is actually room to the left over the bunkers.  Mentally, that is not easy, even after repeat plays.  There is, in reality, tons of fairway out there, some of it shared with number 3, so a solid drive will usually find short grass.  Yet wide fairways are only good if they create uncertainty in the mind of the golfer.  What is really the best line?  Can I just blast away, or is there somewhere I need to hit it to have a chance to make a score?  These questions abound at Renaissance's First, and the answers change from day to day.

What did you mean when you said the "subtlety was lost during the visit"?  Personally, I loved the fact that the course never got too dramatic.  It gives you substance rather than style.  Isn't that what real fans of golf course architecture should be looking for in a course?
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas