Renaissance Club

[Bill_McBride]

Bill
sorry, a Canadian par five is one with trees on both sides, reachable in two but frought with danger around the green, bumpy fairway. 
strictly my opinion but the 10th reminded me of playing in Canada.

Gotcha.  There are some of those in Oregon too!

[Gary Slatter]

John
I like to ease my way into a round and did not feel the 1st hole delivered that opening feeling.  After playing it three times (short, up the right side) I still have no idea what is really expected, a big hook for the first tee shot is not that subtle (for a fader).

I enjoyed the golf course but had expected more.  Scotland is full of sublety, I prefer "in your face" I guess, with some surprise subtlety along the way.  The Friday before we had played Murifield, I had just re-opened our Torrance Course a week before and I was really looking forward to playing with Richard on the new Doak RC.  I enjoyed the companionship and all the people we met and feel the RC will probably evolve into a fine golf course after the new holes and tweaking.  The "substance and style" will take some time to establish, the team running the place are outstanding, and the members that I met are likewise.

[Tom_Doak]

I have never before heard of the "Canadian" par five.

The tenth hole is perhaps my favorite hole at The Renaissance Club, but I can't take much of the credit for it.  A dozen years ago, when we were working on the planning for the property next door, John Ashworth intended to design the course behind the Duke's estate [the present Renaissance Club property] himself.  He walked me through his potential routing, and the one hole which I remembered and used for our own course was our current tenth.  I thought that was a terrific green site and I don't know if I would have found it on my own.

But, John A. is not a Canadian.

[JNC Lyon]

Gary,

The first hole doesn't require a big hook.  Any tee shot that flies over 220 yards will carry those bunkers and have tons of fairway to work with. It doesn't force any one type of shot, which is one reason why I like it.

Tom Doak,

Interesting story about the 10th.  I, too, loved the 10th, and I think I told my playing partners after the round that it was favorite hole on the course.  I was a big fan of the bunkerless green site, which reminded me of several holes at Deal.

Did the first at GCGC have any influence on the opening hole at Renaissance, or am I just grasping at straws there?

[Michael Whitaker]

After only one play I don't feel I can adequately critique RC. But, I was stuck with the feeling that something was missing. I couldn't quite put my finger on it until I played Crail Balcomie the next day. It goes without saying that RC is a well designed, expertly routed, and beautifully constructed golf course. But, even though Crail is inferior technically, it does offer some thrilling shots that can't be found at RC. RC will probably develop into a championship venue, but I don't think it will ever offer the golfing rush one finds at a couple of its neighbors. Perhaps the new holes will add some spice.    

[Scott Warren]

2nd hole - par 3 - 258/224/201 yards

A flat hole to a large green that has lost of slopes on the permiter of the green, feeding the ball towards the bunkers short, right and left. A ridge in the middle of the green angles the back of the green away from the tee.

[JNC Lyon]

A very cool par three--the green is just wild and makes it a good hole over flat land.  The short left bunker is also critical.  It appears to be very close to the front of the green and defines the tee shot visually, yet it is really some 30 yards short of the putting surface.  It creates deception from the tee, and I am guessing it gathers more than a few tee shots.  There is also a canny bunker long of the green to catch the overly bold tee shot.  There are a few of these at Renaissance, and I thought they added to the subtlety of the course.

Like the 1st, it will be tough to see this hole go after the new coastal holes are added in.

In Scott's third photo, North Berwick Law peeks over the tree line.  This minor mountain was one of the defining features of the East Lothian area for me, and it is neat to see it from RC.

[Tom_Doak]

JNC:  Thanks for noticing the North Berwick Law.  We did our best to get a view of it on a couple of holes at The Renaissance Club -- you can also aim at it off #6 tee.

[Simon Holt]

In a way I agree with Michael that there maybe aren't the shots that have the huge rush of blood that come with forced carry's or really narrow entrances.  I do feel with the addition of the hole along the cliff top this will be put to bed though!!  I think courses like Elie, Crail and Kilspindie have these in abundance due to the amount of blind shots.  I supposed the 2nd into the par 5 14th is a shot into the unknown but the fairway is so wide it is hardly intimidating.

Gary

Like JNC I am surprised with your thoughts on the first as you certainly dont need to hook anything to find that fairway.  You either hit straight at the narrow gap between left and right bunkers or aim straight over the left rough.  If anything I would hit over the left rough and favour a fade.  Simples. 

I am perhaps more surprised that you didn't find 11 or 12 memorable as they probably rank as the two most talked about holes on the course.  11 for the demanding placement and length off the tee combined with a great green site framed by the wall and tree.  12 for the solitary bunker and another great green site with fabulous views back to Edinburgh.  I am sure once Scott gets further along with the photo tour it may jog memories.  Interesting how people pick up on different things or do/dont notice some that others dont/do.

[Scott Warren]

The width of the first fairway was a shock after looking down from the tee, but I think it would become a fun first shot of the day when you come to know it's out there.

I, too, was surprised by some of Gary's feelings. Mostly that he has no recollection of #16. That may have been my favourite hole on the course. Re: 8 and 18 being alike, I don't see it.

[Scott Warren]

3rd hole - par 4 - 360-odd to 409 yards

This was a really cool hole, IMO. The fairway is miles wide, with fairway bunkers down the right that can be challenged for the ideal line to the green, and rough/trees to their right if you don't pull off the shot and push/cut it.

A large grouping of bunkers is located short left of the green to make the approach from out of the safe LHS tougher, but for the mine the most memorable feature of a great hole was the two greenside bunkers on the RHS that are fed by the putting surface. They summed up the placement into greens that is necessary at TRC.

(not my best pics, but this hole really handed me my own head on a plate, and my pics tend to suffer when that happens!!)

The drive:


Check out how the land feeds that greenfront bunker!


RHS bunker with the "L" shaped green wrapped around it:

[Michael Whitaker]

Scott - was it the third or fourth green with the epic depth... like an Old Course green turned end to end? You had to double and triple check the club selection for your second shot to one of these greens as you simply could not believe your caddie's recommendation. From the fairway a good portion of the green was hidden so that a bit of an optical illusion was presented which totally confused the golfer's depth perception eye. Improper club selection could easily mean an 80-100 ft putt.

[Tom_Doak]

Michael:

That's probably  #3 you are talking about, but #4 is also hard to judge, and so is #6, the long par five.

[Scott Warren]

According to my yardage book, the 3rd green is 58 yards long. The 2nd is 48, the 4th is 42, the 5th is 42, the 6th is 46, 7th is 42, 8th is 40 and 9th is 42.

11 and 15 are both 50 yards deep.

[Steve Salmen]

I have met David Armitage twice now at the Renaissance Club and I don't know if I've ever met a nicer, more accommodating professional in my life. 

Both visits, I felt like a member for a day.

[Scott Warren]

4th and 5th - par 4s - 460/431/393 and 490/443/410

I loved these two as a pair, so I thought I might list them here together.

Playing adjacent and in opposite directions, the 4th goes a touch right and the 5th leans a touch left. Both feature bunkering at lengths that will challenge the drive both with and into the wind, and bunkering both at the greensite and far enough short to challenge you when you can't get home in two.

The 4th green is benched really attractively into a slight hillside, from where you climb to the top of the hill for the elevated tee shot on the 5th.

Both have really fun greens. It's such a pity that greens are the feature that it's most difficult to do justice in pics, because the set at Renaissance are brilliant.

Two fun holes where par means very little because the day's conditions will likely decide whether you are playing it as a two- or three-shotter.

4th hole tee shot - note the old school topped tee shot bunker about 100 yards off the tee (and our forecaddie stood quite optimistically about 250 yards down the fairway )


Looking up to the DZ on the 4th


The tree needs to be factored in if you drive short and out to the left.


As befits a hole of this length, the running approach is catered for, with some slopes to work the ball towards the flag off the left hand side.


The 5th tee shot offers a clear, elevated view of the flag enticing you to thread one down the left, but look at all that space out to the right that screams SAFETY!


The 2nd shot, if you've too far to home to consider going for it, requires careful consideration of the pin position and the front half of the green has some major contours that will kick the ball away easily.


There has been some work lately to revett some of the bunkers, including this beauty just right of the 5th green. It may just have been me perceiving it wrong, but I felt the bunkering seemed to get deeper and more challenging the further you moved through the round.

[Tom_Doak]

There has been some work lately to revett some of the bunkers, including this beauty just right of the 5th green. It may just have been me perceiving it wrong, but I felt the bunkering seemed to get deeper and more challenging the further you moved through the round.

Scott:

That is an accurate perception, but probably not for the reason you'd think.  The water table is just closer on those first few holes (and #10 and 18) than it is up on the back nine (holes 12-16), so we couldn't go as deep with our bunkers.

[Neil_Crafter]

Tom
Paul Mogford, Graham Papworth and I stopped in to RC after playing Muirfield for a quick look and walked about 6 holes, in the week after the St A conference. Looked great. Also noticed that a few bunkers are in the process of being revetted, ones on 16 in particular. Is there a program to revet all the bunkers or just selected ones? And if so, what is the rationale?

[Tom_Doak]

Neil:

They are on a 3- to 5-year program to revet all the bunkers, so that they can keep on the local program of re-doing a percentage of the course every year.  If we had done them all year one, they might all need re-doing about the same time.

There were some bunkers which I would have been happy to leave without any revetting, but the client prefers them to all get the treatment.

[Scott Warren]

Out of interest, Tom, how much did the soil differ from holes like 11 and 12 to the likes of 1 and 2?

[Neil_Crafter]

Thanks for explaining the rationale Tom.

[Niall C]

Neil:

They are on a 3- to 5-year program to revet all the bunkers, so that they can keep on the local program of re-doing a percentage of the course every year.  If we had done them all year one, they might all need re-doing about the same time.

There were some bunkers which I would have been happy to leave without any revetting, but the client prefers them to all get the treatment.

Tom

Thats an interesting comment. The 3 to 5 year rule for redoing revetted bunkers seems to have become law in the last few years, perhaps on the back of the R&A redoing the Old Course bunkers for its five yearly appearance in the Open. I'm fairly certain that most links didn't have that rigid or regular a programme in redoing the bunkers before. Personally I don't mind, indeed prefer a slightly degraded look to the bunkers. I tend to think a links should look a bit scruffy round the edges rather than having a sharp look that you might get on an inland course.

While I can understand the reasoning of staggering the amount of bunkers getting redone annually at the Renaissance Club but I wonder if the bunkers getting the treatment really needed it. Any idea how they were holding up ? I'm assuming that they are no more than 3 years old.

Niall

[Jud_T]

Great to hear some detailed discussion and see more pix of this course.  Of the RGD Top Ten, this seems to be the course with the least discussion here.  Sounds like we need to have a GCA outing in North Berwick, tip a few pints and spread the gospel to the locals! 

[JNC Lyon]

I thought 4th and 5th at Renaissance were very cool back-to-back par fours.  I loved the shaven bank to the left of the fourth green-what a phenomenal green site!

The 5th was a little more confusing to me.  I guess the strategy did not make a lot of sense off the tee.  However, the hole's tee-to-green confusion is offset by the brilliant green and surrounds.  The green is wild, yet its contours are completely disguised from fairway view.  I think it would take several plays to figure out the proper placement on the second shot.  To me, that is the sign of a great hole.  Additionally, I loved the bunkering and contours around the green.  Again, there are very subtle.

The 4th and 5th show why some people might not properly appreciate Renaissance.  Neither of these long par fours are dramatic, and long fours are often the biggest source of drama on modern courses.  Yet both of these holes contain cool features, concentrated mostly around the green, that fully reveal themselves only after multiple plays.

[Neil_Crafter]

Neil:

They are on a 3- to 5-year program to revet all the bunkers, so that they can keep on the local program of re-doing a percentage of the course every year.  If we had done them all year one, they might all need re-doing about the same time.

There were some bunkers which I would have been happy to leave without any revetting, but the client prefers them to all get the treatment.

Tom

Thats an interesting comment. The 3 to 5 year rule for redoing revetted bunkers seems to have become law in the last few years, perhaps on the back of the R&A redoing the Old Course bunkers for its five yearly appearance in the Open. I'm fairly certain that most links didn't have that rigid or regular a programme in redoing the bunkers before. Personally I don't mind, indeed prefer a slightly degraded look to the bunkers. I tend to think a links should look a bit scruffy round the edges rather than having a sharp look that you might get on an inland course.

While I can understand the reasoning of staggering the amount of bunkers getting redone annually at the Renaissance Club but I wonder if the bunkers getting the treatment really needed it. Any idea how they were holding up ? I'm assuming that they are no more than 3 years old.

Niall

Niall
As I understand it the original bunkers as built were not revetted. But they have decided to start revetting now on a staged basis. Correct me if I am wrong Tom. At our Glenelg course here in Adelaide that we rebuilt from 1998 - 2004 with revetted bunkers, the earliest revetted ones done in 1998 are still going OK but one or two may need attention soon. In our climate with warm season grass sods used, I guess the revetting lasts better than cool season grasses in a wetter climate.