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JNC Lyon

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Tom Simpson and H.N. Wethered made this statement in their 1929 book, The Architectural Side of Golf.  To which hole were they referring?  Please don't cheat if you have a copy of the book.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Alex Miller

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Re: "Probably the finest example in the world of a three-shotter"
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2010, 12:12:29 AM »
I don't have the book, but I'm going to guess 14 "Long" at St. Andrews. Never a bad guess.  :)

Garland Bayley

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Re: "Probably the finest example in the world of a three-shotter"
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2010, 01:22:09 AM »
Clearly it has to be AWT's double dogleg par 5.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: "Probably the finest example in the world of a three-shotter"
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2010, 02:26:41 AM »
It could be Harry Colt's eleventh on Wentworth East... (if not 14 on TOC)

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

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Re: "Probably the finest example in the world of a three-shotter"
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2010, 04:22:43 AM »
Don't have the book, but I'll guess it's the 14th at TOC as well.

Sean_A

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Re: "Probably the finest example in the world of a three-shotter"
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2010, 04:35:34 AM »
Well, I do have the book and I don't recall that quote in their Ideal Course section about the 14th at TOC.  Knowing how vain Simpson was I would probably say he would choose one of his own holes or at least hole he was able to consult on.  I shall need some time to ponder the situation.

Ciao  
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 04:41:13 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Scott Warren

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Re: "Probably the finest example in the world of a three-shotter"
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2010, 06:20:41 AM »
I'm guessing it's one John played while he was in the UK.

Knowing his love for it and the fact he's just started a thread on the following hole, so he's obviously been doing some thinking/reading about the course, I'm going with 14 at Sandwich.

Tom MacWood

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Re: "Probably the finest example in the world of a three-shotter"
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2010, 06:38:06 AM »
The Road Hole? I'm wrong.

I just looked it up and this hole is listed as one of his ideal holes, and it was designed by Abercromby.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 06:40:42 AM by Tom MacWood »

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: "Probably the finest example in the world of a three-shotter"
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2010, 07:02:49 AM »
The Road Hole? I'm wrong.

I just looked it up and this hole is listed as one of his ideal holes, and it was designed by Abercromby.

It must be the 11th at Worplesdon...

Sean_A

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Re: "Probably the finest example in the world of a three-shotter"
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2010, 07:16:50 AM »
The Road Hole? I'm wrong.

I just looked it up and this hole is listed as one of his ideal holes, and it was designed by Abercromby.

It must be the 11th at Worplesdon...

The 11th?  Well, thats a disappointment.  I know the hole carries some fame, but I think the 12th is better.  Perhaps Simpson didn't consider the 12th a proper 3 shotter.

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: "Probably the finest example in the world of a three-shotter"
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2010, 07:23:26 AM »
The Road Hole? I'm wrong.

I just looked it up and this hole is listed as one of his ideal holes, and it was designed by Abercromby.

It must be the 11th at Worplesdon...

The 11th?  Well, thats a disappointment.  I know the hole carries some fame, but I think the 12th is better.  Perhaps Simpson didn't consider the 12th a proper 3 shotter.

Ciao   

I think the 11th's a cracker... although 11,12,13 is a great 3 hole stretch... I'm sure I'm right... His words are coming back to me...

...As for my previous guess, someone of the time called the 11th at Wentworth East one of the greatest 3-shotters... Maybe it wasn't Simpson...


JNC Lyon

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Re: "Probably the finest example in the world of a three-shotter"
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2010, 07:48:36 AM »
Scott, you were certainly on the right track.  It is, indeed, the 11th at Worplesdon.  My jaw hit the floor when I saw this listed in the book.  The hole today remains exactly as it appeared in 1929, although modern technology has made the hole somewhat obsolete.  Nevertheless, the bunker scheme is still quite interesting, and it foiled me the two times I played the hole.  However, I still wonder if Worplesdon's 11th is more of a technical selection than anything else.  I can think of several par fives that are just as, if not more interesting than this hole in Great Britain, let alone the world.  Why this one for Simpson? 
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Bill_McBride

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Re: "Probably the finest example in the world of a three-shotter"
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2010, 09:13:42 AM »
#14 at the Old Course has to be the most influential, no?

Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

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Re: "Probably the finest example in the world of a three-shotter"
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2010, 04:33:06 PM »
7th at Pine Valley
16th at Olympic (Lake)

Neither hole was probably ever seen by Simpson, nor are they three-shotters any longer, but both are excellent holes!

Jim Hoak

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Re: "Probably the finest example in the world of a three-shotter"
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2010, 08:31:24 PM »
The 7th at Pine Valley is probably a three-shotter for everyone because of the need to lay up short of Hell's Half Acre.  I understand some have tried to go for it in two, but no one has ever held it on the green in two.  Anyone know if that is true?
I think 15 at Pine Valley would be another great example of a three-shotter for everyone, as also would the 14th at Pebble Beach, where with the flagstick on top as it always is, it is certainly a three-shotter in almost all cases.

Scott Warren

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Re: "Probably the finest example in the world of a three-shotter"
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2010, 08:39:52 PM »
The 7th at Pine Valley is probably a three-shotter for everyone because of the need to lay up short of Hell's Half Acre.  I understand some have tried to go for it in two, but no one has ever held it on the green in two.  Anyone know if that is true?

It was held in two during an amateur tournament last year, from memory. IIRC, the bloke who did it hit two four woods. There was a thread on here.

EDIT - found it: http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40130.0/
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 08:46:55 PM by Scott Warren »

Rory Connaughton

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Re: "Probably the finest example in the world of a three-shotter"
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2010, 09:36:58 PM »
9 at Rolling Green is very strong.

Tom MacWood

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Re: "Probably the finest example in the world of a three-shotter"
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2010, 10:49:17 PM »
7th at Pine Valley
16th at Olympic (Lake)

Neither hole was probably ever seen by Simpson, nor are they three-shotters any longer, but both are excellent holes!

He definitely saw the 7th at PVGC - he wrote about his admiration for the course. And I wouldn't be surprised if he played Olympic, Fowler & Simpson were fairly active in NoCal.

Adam Clayman

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Re: "Probably the finest example in the world of a three-shotter"
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2010, 10:59:37 PM »
14th @ Bandon Trails
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Bill_McBride

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Re: "Probably the finest example in the world of a three-shotter"
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2010, 11:05:47 PM »
Not to thread jack.........but wonder what Herbert Fowler did in Northern California besides some work at Cal Club (presumably after Macan) and Crystal Springs.   Anything else?

Sean_A

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Re: "Probably the finest example in the world of a three-shotter"
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2010, 02:13:28 AM »
The Road Hole? I'm wrong.

I just looked it up and this hole is listed as one of his ideal holes, and it was designed by Abercromby.

Ally]

It must be the 11th at Worplesdon...

The 11th?  Well, thats a disappointment.  I know the hole carries some fame, but I think the 12th is better.  Perhaps Simpson didn't consider the 12th a proper 3 shotter.

Ciao   

I think the 11th's a cracker... although 11,12,13 is a great 3 hole stretch... I'm sure I'm right... His words are coming back to me...

...As for my previous guess, someone of the time called the 11th at Wentworth East one of the greatest 3-shotters... Maybe it wasn't Simpson...



Ally

I ain't buying it.  There is no way Worplesdon's 11th is the finest (probably or not) example of a 3 shotter in the world. 

I also don't buy that a forced lay-up 3 shotter is the best example either - no matter how famous the course is.  TOC's 14th is in my opinion a far better example of an ideal three-shotter than the others mentioned.  In fact, I would go for TOC's 17th as a great example of a three-shotter.
 

Ciao

 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: "Probably the finest example in the world of a three-shotter"
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2010, 02:21:59 AM »
Tom,

Did he see Pine Valley before 1927 or 1928 though?... As for Olympic, he may well have seen it but Fowler was the American wing of that particular partnership, wasn't he?... Whilst Simpson stayed at home and looked after European matters...

Sean,

I'm with you in that it's quite probably not the best three shotter in the world... I'm sure he's noted his admiration for the 14th and 17th at St.Andrews elsewhere... I wouldn't be surprised if Simpson was just a contrarian in this regard... Not wanting to go for the obvious answer... That said, I guess Worplesdon would have had an even higher profile then than it does now...

Sean_A

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Re: "Probably the finest example in the world of a three-shotter"
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2010, 03:25:58 AM »
Tom,

Did he see Pine Valley before 1927 or 1928 though?... As for Olympic, he may well have seen it but Fowler was the American wing of that particular partnership, wasn't he?... Whilst Simpson stayed at home and looked after European matters...

Sean,

I'm with you in that it's quite probably not the best three shotter in the world... I'm sure he's noted his admiration for the 14th and 17th at St.Andrews elsewhere... I wouldn't be surprised if Simpson was just a contrarian in this regard... Not wanting to go for the obvious answer... That said, I guess Worplesdon would have had an even higher profile then than it does now...

Ally

I am thinking that Simpson may well have thought many par 5s are 4.5s and not true three-shotters.  #17 at TOC certainly wasn't a true 3 shotter and in some cases #14 wasn't either.  It isn't just recent years that guys have hit that green in two. In fact, I bet #17 was harder than #14 to hit in two back in the day, but still played easier.  The 11th at Worp would certainly have been a true 3 shotter 80 years ago.  I don't know if Simpson used pros/top ams or club golfers as the standard.  I also wonder what his thoughts were on bogey VS par. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom MacWood

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Re: "Probably the finest example in the world of a three-shotter"
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2010, 06:25:29 AM »
Tom,

Did he see Pine Valley before 1927 or 1928 though?... As for Olympic, he may well have seen it but Fowler was the American wing of that particular partnership, wasn't he?... Whilst Simpson stayed at home and looked after European matters...

Sean,

I'm with you in that it's quite probably not the best three shotter in the world... I'm sure he's noted his admiration for the 14th and 17th at St.Andrews elsewhere... I wouldn't be surprised if Simpson was just a contrarian in this regard... Not wanting to go for the obvious answer... That said, I guess Worplesdon would have had an even higher profile then than it does now...

He would have seen PV in 1920. Fowler & Simpson were working in the States for parts of three years - 1920-22. Of those three tours Simpson only came over for one (Fowler was over for all three), the 1920 tour, which involved work in California. Seeing Olympic seems a little far fetched. The Ocean course at Olympic was the more famous design, worthy of a side trip, but that course wasn't built until 1924. I believe 1924 is also when the present Lakeside course was built.

Sean_A

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Re: "Probably the finest example in the world of a three-shotter"
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2010, 06:47:58 AM »
Tom,

Did he see Pine Valley before 1927 or 1928 though?... As for Olympic, he may well have seen it but Fowler was the American wing of that particular partnership, wasn't he?... Whilst Simpson stayed at home and looked after European matters...

Sean,

I'm with you in that it's quite probably not the best three shotter in the world... I'm sure he's noted his admiration for the 14th and 17th at St.Andrews elsewhere... I wouldn't be surprised if Simpson was just a contrarian in this regard... Not wanting to go for the obvious answer... That said, I guess Worplesdon would have had an even higher profile then than it does now...

He would have seen PV in 1920. Fowler & Simpson were working in the States for parts of three years - 1920-22. Of those three tours Simpson only came over for one (Fowler was over for all three), the 1920 tour, which involved work in California. Seeing Olympic seems a little far fetched. The Ocean course at Olympic was the more famous design, worthy of a side trip, but that course wasn't built until 1924. I believe 1924 is also when the present Lakeside course was built.

Tommy Mac

Do you have any quotes/quips from Simpson on Pine Valley?

Ciao

New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

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