The layup shot on a par 5

[George Pazin]

Been too long since I posted an actual architecture topic, so here goes:

I was talking with a friend yesterday about a few NJ courses; he was (foolishly) seeking my thoughts. We of course got to talking about my favorite subject, subtlety, and he mentioned that one of his favorite holes on his home course was the 9th, a par 5 where he recently discovered a new lay up spot that offers a much better chance for birdie.

So I mentioned to him that some bastard named Tom Doak ripped one of my armchair architect designs for a par 5, citing a lack of interest in the 2nd shot, should one choose to lay up rather than go for it. He was of course completely mistaken about my subtle design, but I digress...

What characterizes this interesting shot, in your opinion? Flirting with a hazard? Better visibility on the approach? Different stances (hint: that's what my design offered, which wasn't apparent in the 2D design)?

Share your thoughts, as well as some examples.

Btw, my friend's course is Mountain Ridge, a sure fire GCA favorite. He loves the 9th, says many don't appreciate it.

[Garland Bayley]

George,

Watch your language.
 

[Alex Miller]

George, I think it's all those things.

I think having the option to choose based on angle of attack and pin position is the most crucial point. You can have a rather bland layup area, but if the green has interesting contours which reward a player for thinking on their layup shot, then it's a good layup shot.

[George Pazin]

You can have a rather bland layup area, but if the green has interesting contours which reward a player for thinking on their layup shot, then it's a good layup shot.

Aha! You have hit upon the brilliance of my design! And you probably haven't even seen it.

Any examples?

-----

Garland, your post confused me at first. I would have thought by now that everyone would know I'm a charter member of TDBB Society and my colorful language was in jest, primarily at myself.

[Alex Miller]

Uh, the only one I can think of is from my AAC entry. It prompted some discussion in another thread already, but I'll post it here to illustrate what I was talking about. 




So, yeah, there's a stream splitting the fairway, but what's more important is the choices just from the greensite. As Tim Nugent already pointed out, if the pin is in the back, the right side is the better option. If the pin is in the front, the left side allows a run up and a better angle. Choices like this are what layups are about, not necessarily challenging a hazard in the layup area (again, IGNORE THE STREAM  ). Good layups do a better job of separating smart players from dumb ones rather than good golfers from bad ones.

[JESII]

There's got to be a way to screw it up to make it interesting...but not in your face like ponds and bunkers everywhere you'd want to hit it.

#16 at Applebrook (just outside Philadelphia) has a dead flat layup area about 80 yards wide and probable 80 yards long...running up to about 85 yards from the green before an environmental area crosses for about 40 yards. If you can't get it just about to the green in the air, you lay back to 100 yards or more.

Problem is, there's this little bunker so well placed in the right center of this gigantic wasteland (the hole turns just a little right at the green...) that you absolutely have to work on the shot. The bunker (including surrounding rough) is probably 8 feet X 8 feet and I've been in it 4 of the 7 times I've played the hole...totally ridiculous!

I think the key is that the bunker is placed right where you would aim if it were all fairway, and it's small enough that you never really worry about it...until you get to where you can't avoid it...

[Alex Miller]

It seemed selfish to just post my own fantasy hole, so here's the 14th at LACC North via google earth. For those who don't know, the green is perched and behind there is a large drop off. It's not reachable for most, but because the green is so unique and well defended, the layup becomes paramount. If the pin is in the right tongue it's best to lay up to the far right side of the fairway with a full wedge. If the pin is left, you can get closer to the green and keep it down the left side. Obviously more width in the fairway would make it even better, but there's not much room for that.

[Peter Pallotta]

Ah, George - I think Tom D was 'projecting' a little there, in his criticism of your design. Not blaming him or anything; even the best of us sometimes see the speck in our brother's eye instead of the beam in our own. But we all know that most par 5s suck on the architectural interest scale, and it's mostly not because of some cliched 'risk-reward' 2nd shot decision. It's because the scale (aesthetically) and theory (playing-wise) is usually all out of whack on a 550 yard hole, and because architects try really, really hard to hide this fact by trying to cover all their bases with all levels of players. Just make the damn things as HARD as possible, I say, reachable with two GREAT shots but with a green complex that is DEATH if you miss it anywhere. As someone in Glengarry Glen Ross might say: "Layups are for losers. You wanna lay-up? F-ck you, go home and lay up with your kids. There is only one thing that matters on par 5s - hit the green that is there in two!"

Peter

Okay, you want a landing zone for the lay-up? That damn piece of fairway better be really canted, preferably high right-low left.

[Garland Bayley]

Come on Alex. It is well known that few can hit either side of that fairway with the creek in it, because most balls will roll into the creek.

[Chris Flamion]

George-

The hole that comes to mind is the 6th at my home course (Village Links).  It plays as much as 552 but I play it from 502.  On the rare occasion where I find the fairway deep enough that I have a shot to hit it into the Pitching zone I am shown all sorts of problems.  The landing area is extremely narrow, maybe 10 yards and only 10 yards long.  The punishment for missing is either a rather severe uphill lie, or a bunker on either side of it.  However, with the prime landing zone being 60 yards out you have wide open access to any part of the green, and with rather few contours the reward for hitting there is almost certainly a birdie.

I normally hit to the bottom of the hill and leave myself 100 yards as hitting into a 60 yard out bunker is all but death for me.

Chris

[Bill_McBride]

You can have a rather bland layup area, but if the green has interesting contours which reward a player for thinking on their layup shot, then it's a good layup shot.

Aha! You have hit upon the brilliance of my design! And you probably haven't even seen it.

Any examples?

 

#14 at the Old Course is a great example of a hole where the best layup, way to the left, may seem odd.

Two reasons:  (1)  You are safely left, WAY left, of Hell Bunker; (2) your bump and run is straight into a bunker less slope.  From short of Hell, the angles from straight on send your ball in the wrong direction.

[Sean_A]

The lay-up shot?  When i think of great par 5s they are of the 4.5 type - which means they are essentially about the drive and the go for it or not decision if the drive is well off.  Sure, the lay-up is of importance, but as Pietro points out it is a most definitely lower priority.  I look at these holes as the ones that are the best examples (instead of long par 4s) of separating the men from the boys.  So to me, the recovery shot from a poor drive (and if the archie is lucky this can be combined as the lay-up area) should be the secondary focus.  It should be very awkward and essentially if hit well still leaves an awkward third to get back into position for a "routine" par.  I am not a fan of too much going on in a hole; one or two key components is that is necessary to create interest and challenge.  Two of the best I have played in London are Sunny New's 6th and Addy's 16th.  A good drive on either almost forces the hand of the player to go for the green as a lay-up just seems ridiculous from a prime position after a good drive.  Its almost as if the design is making the player ask themselves on the tee if they have the bottle to go after these greens in two - and we must remember that there is a decent shot of recovery if one does fail - especially at Addy.  If not, its probably better to lay-up off the tee to eliminate the "go for it decision".  This to me is proper psych out golf because it requires the golfer to be candid about his abilities AND ambition while stood on the tee.  

Sometimes, there are true three-shotters which do enthrall and Cruden Bay's Bluidy Burn is a great example.  Somehow, just getting to the right spot in two for the correct approach angle is enough on this hole - the green site and complex is that good.  But this sort of design is far and few between.  Most proper 3-shotters are too busy and essentially boring to play. 

Ciao