[Tom_Doak]

Pat:

I love that hole location on #11 that we had on Saturday, but that is probably the second easiest hole locations on that green (after front left).  As long as you've hit a good enough tee shot to carry the big bunker at the front of the green, all you have to do is hit it up into the backstop on the right, and the ball feeds back close to the hole.  I've made more than one birdie with the flag up there.

[Sven Nilsen]

I thought it was a pretty easy hole.  Crank one out there 290, laser a 3w right at the stick.  I was thinking "3" from the tee box, but had to settle for a ho-hum two putt bird...  Lots of pretty grass and bunkers though.

Obviously the hole is too easy.  We'll get that fixed for you Jon.

[Jeff Doerr]

Wild Thing looks like great fun. There are some greens you just want to hang out on and try all kinds of shots. Wish I could've joined you guys.

[JWinick]

Hole #4 works if green speeds are kept manageable.   One of the biggest problems I see with such a wild green is it may inhibit your ability to have faster green speeds on the other greens.   It seems like you have to keep the green speeds manageable so 4 is playable.  If #4 was less undulating, you could run the entire course green speeds faster.   

Which brings up another point.... Is it possible to run green speeds slower on this green and faster on the others?  Or is that viewed as unfair?

[PCCraig]

Pat:

I love that hole location on #11 that we had on Saturday, but that is probably the second easiest hole locations on that green (after front left).  As long as you've hit a good enough tee shot to carry the big bunker at the front of the green, all you have to do is hit it up into the backstop on the right, and the ball feeds back close to the hole.  I've made more than one birdie with the flag up there.

Tom-

The key to playing to that back right pin is really almost adding 20 yards to your approach shot in the fairway, as 1) it's a good 20ft uphill and 2) you want to land the ball way past the pin to take advantage of the backstop. On Saturday I knew that the key was getting the ball all the way back there and using the slope, but I hit the ball about 4 yards short and despite hitting the green it rolled back and down the front of the slope about 40 yards short

You really could do an entire thread on most of the green complexes on the property!

[Anthony Gray]

  This really gives us something. The large bunker which does not appear to come into play that often (never played it) is great for the eye and then the joy ride at the green. We want more.

  Anthony

[Chuck Brown]

I agree with all of the foregoing praise of #4.  I think it is one of the best Par 5's anywhere in the State of Michigan.  And an excellent example of how one needs to mentally play a hole backwards depending on where the hole is cut.
I was with Carl on Saturday, and he'll remember both of our caddies making a point of talking about where the hole was cut before we were even on the tee!  There are multiple ideal lines, and mutliple ways to play it, depending on where the hole is cut, what the wind is doing, and what sort of a score you need.
I think #4 is as good a hole as there is at Lost Dunes, which is saying an awful lot.

[Carl Nichols]

I agree with all of the foregoing praise of #4.  I think it is one of the best Par 5's anywhere in the State of Michigan.  And an excellent example of how one needs to mentally play a hole backwards depending on where the hole is cut.
I was with Carl on Saturday, and he'll remember both of our caddies making a point of talking about where the hole was cut before we were even on the tee!  There are multiple ideal lines, and mutliple ways to play it, depending on where the hole is cut, what the wind is doing, and what sort of a score you need.
I think #4 is as good a hole as there is at Lost Dunes, which is saying an awful lot.

Yes, the caddies were talking about that before we teed off.  But when I pulled a club for my second shot, if I had known more about the green (and if my guy hadn't told me that middle of the green would be ok), I would've taken an extra club for the reasons stated by Pat -- or at least I would've hit the club I pulled better!

[Ed Oden]

My first thought when I saw this picture...


...was that the green reminded me of the 8th green at Ballyneal...

[Richard Choi]

Ed, that was my exact thought as well. Can someone shed a light on which one has more slope?

[Chuck Brown]

I agree with all of the foregoing praise of #4.  I think it is one of the best Par 5's anywhere in the State of Michigan.  And an excellent example of how one needs to mentally play a hole backwards depending on where the hole is cut.
I was with Carl on Saturday, and he'll remember both of our caddies making a point of talking about where the hole was cut before we were even on the tee!  There are multiple ideal lines, and mutliple ways to play it, depending on where the hole is cut, what the wind is doing, and what sort of a score you need.
I think #4 is as good a hole as there is at Lost Dunes, which is saying an awful lot.

Yes, the caddies were talking about that before we teed off.  But when I pulled a club for my second shot, if I had known more about the green (and if my guy hadn't told me that middle of the green would be ok), I would've taken an extra club for the reasons stated by Pat -- or at least I would've hit the club I pulled better!

Carl your problem is that you hit it so far, and cut off so much of the corner off the tee, that your caddy had probably never been in that place before.

[jonathan_becker]

Ed, that was my exact thought as well. Can someone shed a light on which one has more slope?

I'm interested to know as well (haven't been to Ballyneal yet).   However, if Doak has built a green with more slopes and contours than #4 green at LD, then I want to see it.   

[Carl Nichols]

I agree with all of the foregoing praise of #4.  I think it is one of the best Par 5's anywhere in the State of Michigan.  And an excellent example of how one needs to mentally play a hole backwards depending on where the hole is cut.
I was with Carl on Saturday, and he'll remember both of our caddies making a point of talking about where the hole was cut before we were even on the tee!  There are multiple ideal lines, and mutliple ways to play it, depending on where the hole is cut, what the wind is doing, and what sort of a score you need.
I think #4 is as good a hole as there is at Lost Dunes, which is saying an awful lot.

Yes, the caddies were talking about that before we teed off.  But when I pulled a club for my second shot, if I had known more about the green (and if my guy hadn't told me that middle of the green would be ok), I would've taken an extra club for the reasons stated by Pat -- or at least I would've hit the club I pulled better!

Carl your problem is that you hit it so far, and cut off so much of the corner off the tee, that your caddy had probably never been in that place before.

Who knew a big block would be the right line? 

[Jeff Tang]

That's an interesting question.  I have now played both courses having played Lost Dunes this past weekend.  While I don't have "data" to support my feelings I thought that the fourth at Lost Dunes had higher slopes but that the eighth at Ballyneal had more slopes as a whole.  Both greens are very large.  Due to the height of the slopes on the fourth at LD I was thnking that the 12th at Ballyneal actually reminds me of the fourth at LD more so than the eigth at BN.  I say this also because at both BN's 12th and at LD's 4th you can be caught on the wrong side of a slope and not have a lot of chance to get the next one close, while I feel this is less of a problem than on BN's eighth.  All three are awesome greens, though.

[Ed Oden]

Due to the height of the slopes on the fourth at LD I was thnking that the 12th at Ballyneal actually reminds me of the fourth at LD more so than the eigth at BN.  I say this also because at both BN's 12th and at LD's 4th you can be caught on the wrong side of a slope and not have a lot of chance to get the next one close, while I feel this is less of a problem than on BN's eighth.

Jim, you may be right.  In all honesty, I can't remember the details of the BN #12 green for some reason.  But look closely at my pick of the #8 again and you will see a ball behind and to the right of the flag...


That was my ball.  For what it's worth, there was no chance to putt that ball and keep it on the same level as the flag from that position.

Ed

[Mark Smolens]

Ed, I'm guessing that Mr. Doak would tell you that you could not putt the ball at the flag and keep it on that level, but if you putted it off toward some other slope, you could. . . that was my take on the gist of his comments about the putt that I believe Pat Craig ended up with on Sunday's pin. . .

[Richard Hetzel]

I wasn't bothered by the severity (if you want to call it that) of any of the greens at Lost Dunes. Actually, they were quite refreshing to say the least. Although the masses (doubt the masses are playing Lost Dunes, but you get my drift) might view them as untraditional, they certainly did not come across as contrived or "tricked up" in any way, shape or form. Tom, I thoroughly enjoyed #4's green. Sometimes, you just have to commit to being "below" or "above" the hole depending upon where the pin is cut that day. Good job!!!!

[Ed Oden]

Ed, I'm guessing that Mr. Doak would tell you that you could not putt the ball at the flag and keep it on that level, but if you putted it off toward some other slope, you could. . . that was my take on the gist of his comments about the putt that I believe Pat Craig ended up with on Sunday's pin. . .

Mark, could be, but I doubt it.  My threesome included the owner.  When we concluded the hole, all three of us went back to that spot and tried every conceivable method of approaching the putt.  None stopped on the level of the hole.  Trust me, I am not complaining.  As I have said repeatedly on other Ballyneal discussions, the 8th green is among my favorites there.  I just put my ball in the wrong spot, which I am entirely fine with.  My point was merely in response to Jim's suggestion that such a situation was unlikely on #8.  Regardless, both greens look like terrific fun to me.

Anyway, I have already derailed this discussion enough, which wasn't my intent.  So I'll bow out now and let things get back to Lost Dunes #4 where it belongs.

Ed

[Richard Choi]

I will second Ed. The pin placement in the picture above is impossible from above. I have tried that putt many times and I can barely keep it on the green let alone on that plateau.

That is one of my favorite greens anywhere.

[Jeff Tang]

Ed, I'm guessing that Mr. Doak would tell you that you could not putt the ball at the flag and keep it on that level, but if you putted it off toward some other slope, you could. . . that was my take on the gist of his comments about the putt that I believe Pat Craig ended up with on Sunday's pin. . .

Mark, could be, but I doubt it.  My threesome included the owner.  When we concluded the hole, all three of us went back to that spot and tried every conceivable method of approaching the putt.  None stopped on the level of the hole.  Trust me, I am not complaining.  As I have said repeatedly on other Ballyneal discussions, the 8th green is among my favorites there.  I just put my ball in the wrong spot, which I am entirely fine with.  My point was merely in response to Jim's suggestion that such a situation was unlikely on #8.  Regardless, both greens look like terrific fun to me.

Anyway, I have already derailed this discussion enough, which wasn't my intent.  So I'll bow out now and let things get back to Lost Dunes #4 where it belongs.

Ed

Ed, I didn't intend to mean that the situation you describe couldn't happen on the 8th at BN, rather that I just think the situation is more pronounced on the 12th at BN and the 4th at LD if caught on the wrong side of the slope.  I agree there are positions on BN's 8th where this can occur, but I think the situation is a bit more severe on the other two greens.  Regarding the 8th at BN I never said "unlikely" I said "less of a problem".  As a matter of fact I would contend that this situation on BN's 8th is likely, just not as severe as on LD's 4th or BN's 12th.

[JR Potts]

I'm surprised everyone is talking about #4.  I thought #4 was fair given the length of the hole (I 3 putted for par).  I thought the only unfair green on the course (and it was probably a product of pin positioning) was #3.  #3 played as a 190ish yard par 3 into the wind when I played it......the pin was middle left.  Anywhere right of the hole (Even 20 feet away) made it absolutely impossible to putt it within 20 feet.

That's goofy golf to me.  The rest of the greens were great.....#3 really sticks out to me.

[Ed Oden]

Jeff, we're on the same page.  I understood your point and am sure you are spot on.  My apologies to Dan for the unintentional hijack.

Ed

[Tom_Doak]

For what it's worth, #8 at Ballyneal is not a personal favorite, because as Ed found out, there is no way to putt from that top tier down to some hole locations on the next tier down.  We could not find a way to make that work, and we wanted to have a top right hole location, even though it would only be used occasionally.  So, we rationalized that really nobody should get it up there by accident with the flag down below.  But, I know it happens, so I'm not happy with it.

Ryan:  I told everybody on my team that with the hole in the back left location on #3 ... which is by far the most severe position on that green ... it was imperative to get the ball hole high or behind the hole so as not to putt over that bump that the hole was right behind.  That was a really severe placement on Saturday; there's actually a fair amount of space on that upper left plateau, you don't have to cut the hole three feet on the other side of that bump!

I am pleased but somewhat surprised that the fourth hole has gotten so much attention here.  It is close to the most severe green I've ever built, but I suspect that the 13th at Barnbougle would get more votes from people who had played them both.

[JR Potts]

Ryan:  I told everybody on my team that with the hole in the back left location on #3 ... which is by far the most severe position on that green ... it was imperative to get the ball hole high or behind the hole so as not to putt over that bump that the hole was right behind.  That was a really severe placement on Saturday; there's actually a fair amount of space on that upper left plateau, you don't have to cut the hole three feet on the other side of that bump!

Tom - when I played #3 the pin was at the bottom of the ridge.  So I guess to was more of a mid-front left position.

It goes to show, sadistic pin positions can totally destroy and manipulate design intent.

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