Merion 2016

[Dan Boerger]

Playing 13 a few years ago ... pin right/center. Car exiting, but stops as I strike the ball. A great shot, car doesn't move and window rolls down. My heart stops and for just a split second my hand was drawn to my wallet to pull out the credit card ready to buy the framed print of 13 in the pro shop ....

But ... Out come two hands about 6" apart alerting me to the length of my birdie putt.

[JESII]

yeah yeah yeah...I've heard it a million times...easy hole...seems like a short par five for me. I can usually drive it all the way to a greenside bunker...

[Chip Gaskins]

Glad you widened the 11th fairway 

[JESII]

Like that?

I do think that fairway would be pretty good at 50 or 60 yards wide...but not because I can't hit it with a 4 iron...it's because everyone should have a chance at that approach shot.

Have you gone back for a second try?

[Sean Leary]

Is there any way to add pin positions on 12 by just adding greenspace and not adjusting the slope?

[Joe Bausch]

Is there any way to add pin positions on 12 by just adding greenspace and not adjusting the slope?

In my opinion, there isn't much room to accomplish this Sean.  Maybe, just maybe, there is a bit of room for more green back right, but I don't think there is an extensive amount to work with there.

TomP, MikeC, others:  your thoughts?

[JESII]

Is there any way to add pin positions on 12 by just adding greenspace and not adjusting the slope?

I don't think so Sean.

I defend the USGA in 99% of their efforts, but on this thing I have to ask...why 6 distinct locations? and why 13 feet? I've seen US Open greens and they are rarely 13 feet, and I've played plenty of tournament golf (admittedly not a US Open) and don't think it should be mandatory to find 6 wholly distinct locations on every single green.

[Mike Sweeney]

Is there any way to add pin positions on 12 by just adding greenspace and not adjusting the slope?

Of course, have the green run at a 10 rather than 12+.

See Yale this week in the NCAA regionals. I played the course with the Duran's on Sunday. Greens were maybe a 9.5 (estimate) and maybe Scott will get them to 10.5 on Thursday assuming this rain stops. Anything over that and you have to flatten a bunch of greens.

[Chip Gaskins]

Like that?

I do think that fairway would be pretty good at 50 or 60 yards wide...but not because I can't hit it with a 4 iron...it's because everyone should have a chance at that approach shot.

Have you gone back for a second try?

I have.  Not much better, missed it with a 3 iron left, hit in the bunker and didn't get it up and down, sigh.....

Seriously, look at the width of the fairway in that first picture.  I suspect if they mowed it 40 yards wide the average score would be the same over time being you are hitting into such a penal, sharp edged, green site.

[TEPaul]

"Is there any way to add pin positions on 12 by just adding greenspace and not adjusting the slope?"

You couldn't add greenspace without adjusting the slope somewhere. They could try to lift the front half some I guess but then you'd be sort of chasing grade on the front approach which means if you didn't take that up too for quite a ways balls coming off the front of the green would just come off further.

[Mike Cirba]

I'll say it.

They should leave the flipping green alone and just play golf.  

If this isn't the stupidest thing...six hole locations.  

Bah!

[Chip Gaskins]

I'll say it.

They should leave the f**king green alone and just play golf.  

If this isn't the stupidest thing...six hole locations.  

Bah!

mike-


first, i doubt they are thinking of doing anything at merion for the open other than maybe flattening out the 12, but what are you talking about in your post?

[Mike Sweeney]

I'll say it.

They should leave the f**king green alone and just play golf. 

If this isn't the stupidest thing...six hole locations. 

Bah!

Mike,

It is actually a pretty simple thing. Here we are in 2010, and the USGA is holding onto their image as defender of the game. Merion can very easily say No at this point to changes for the 2013 US Open. MERION, not the USGA, is in the drivers seat. Merion could make a real difference to the game. The choice is theirs. Let's stop blaming the USGA.

[Chip Gaskins]

Mike

Seriously, do you think this is in Merion's hands?  Come on.  You know better.  The USGA is driving the boat once they pick the course.

Ask Winged Foot, Shinnecock, etc

Chip

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike

Seriously, do you think this is in Merion's hands?  Come on.  You know better.  The USGA is driving the boat once they pick the course.

Ask Winged Foot, Shinnecock, etc

Chip

Chip,

1. Please name the changes made to Shinnecock by the USGA.

2. Please name the date of the next US Open or any
 USGA event at Winged Foot or Shinnecock.

[Sean Leary]

Its not Merion's or the USGA's decision, silly. Its Fazio's decision. Its always his decision because he brainwashes these clubs and the USGA into making these changes. They are helpless with his powers.

[JESII]

I think greens should be played close to as fast as technology will reasonably allow, and I also think it's poor form to maintain certain greens differently due to their slope...but I have much more interest in what happens when the show leaves town...

Think about how much less interesting the 12th green will be when it's flattened enough to provide 6 distinct areas at say 1% slope when the greens are only 9 feet.

That would drive my thoughts on how to prepare/present the hole in a US Open, and in that context I think I would be happy with maybe 2 distinct hole locations...which I think they have now...

[Mike Cirba]

I think greens should be played close to as fast as technology will reasonably allow, and I also think it's poor form to maintain certain greens differently due to their slope...but I have much more interest in what happens when the show leaves town...

Think about how much less interesting the 12th green will be when it's flattened enough to provide 6 distinct areas at say 1% slope when the greens are only 9 feet.

That would drive my thoughts on how to prepare/present the hole in a US Open, and in that context I think I would be happy with maybe 2 distinct hole locations...which I think they have now...

Jim,

That's absolutely correct.

I think you have t apply a "is this a better golf hole" standard to some of these decisions, and in the case of the 12th and 15th, to meet the "six hole locations" test both greens would end up neutered and each hole would be permanently devalued for four days of professional play.

For what?.

[JESII]

The truth is; at 13 feet the 12th green has very few places where the ball will actually stop and both Merion and the USGA have to be concerned about perception...so I get it, but the decision to need 6 distinct areas seems overboard and worries me about afterwards...controlling your ball into the green will lose some of its value as greens flatten out...

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

It seems to me that radical surgery should be a last resort, not a first preventative option.

It's sort of like the man who is castrated electively in his mid 20s because of the possibility of testicular cancer due to some family history.   

The cure seems much worse than the possible disease.

[JESII]

I don't disagree in general, but what would your suggestion be, now 3 years out from the event...what would you recommend, knowing everything we know right now?

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

You don't take a turn designed to be driven at no more than 180 mph at 200.

Why not vary greenspeeds to suit design?   Greenspeeds change through the course of a day anyway, some slowing and some actually speeding up (someone actually claimed that to me the other day so if anyone wants to challenge that one I'm not your source).  

Why take them to some limit that doesn't work in the first place and then say you have a problem?

It's a created problem, one that doesn't exist once you challenge the assumption that consistency is mandatory, as that's fallacious and impossible to maintain throughout the round.  I'd also apply the "what would Linc Roden or Bill Kittleman do" standard to the "problem".

[JESII]

I think consistency of green preparation is important...I don't really have an explanation for it other than I think the greeen staff should be commended for producing a consistent product.

As to the 12th, I think slowing down the green to allow for 6 distinct locations, and providing consitency throughout the course will result in the majority of the greens losing much of their teeth...so I don't know.

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

I'd also question the necessity of six hole locations applied to every green, regardless of size, slope, or configuration.

Seems unnecessarily arbitrary to me.

[JESII]

Mike,

I don't think it's arbitrary...you've got a couple practice rounds and four tournament rounds...but why not repeat some of them? I understand there is a bit of a chew factor, but these are going to be the most manicured greens on the planet that year...