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Jason Topp

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How would you design an executive course?
« on: May 17, 2010, 11:27:13 PM »
Inspired by this article

http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB10001424052748704635204575242360769906000-lMyQjAxMTAwMDEwNjExNDYyWj.html

The only niche for which I can envision a new golf course architect making a living designing courses in the US is executive courses.  A female coworker is playing her first rounds at one after a winter of lessons.  The course near my house is always overrun with seniors, beginners and parents with kids.  I'm even a bit partial to executive courses because the only tournament I have ever won was a 9 hope executive course warm-up event before a club championship 5-6 years ago.

Generally, the executive courses I have played have been pretty bland.  How would you design one to be economical and accomodating to the beginner but interesting for a GCA geek or a good player who is introducing someone to the game?

Alex Miller

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Re: How would you design an executive course?
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2010, 11:31:49 PM »
This isn't an executive course, but it's the best par 3 course I've played.


http://www.terranea.com/california-golf-resorts.php

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you design an executive course?
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2010, 11:52:50 PM »
The future of golf design according to Bobby Weed:

http://www.golfdom-digital.com/golfdom/201005#pg6

I recently enjoyed playing Hale Irwin's Lake Course at www.palmvalleygolf.com so much so that I broke 70!!!

The Hale Irwin-designed Lakes Course was created to provide players with a high-quality alternative to the Palms Course. With a par of 62, players will enjoy a fun and challenging round of golf in a considerably less amount of time. Combined with Palm Valley's expansive practice facility, Palm Valley Golf Club offers one of the Southwest's most complete golf experiences and sets itself apart from other Phoenix Arizona golf courses.


The Lakes Course
Par 62, Designed by the legendary Hale Irwin
Gold Tees: Yardage - 4745  Slope - 100  Rating - 62.4
Blue Tees:  Yardage - 4246  Slope - 98  Rating - 60.8
White Tees: Yardage - 3747  Slope - 93  Rating - 58.9
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

John Moore II

Re: How would you design an executive course?
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2010, 12:08:08 AM »
I would design an executive course much the same way I would design any course (at least a daily fee business model). Not very penal, few hazards, but as interesting as possible, and with 3 hole loops that all come back to the club house. That way, people can play 3 holes if they want, 6 holes, 9, or however many. Then you can get more business that way because some times people might only have time to play 3 or 6 holes, but they still want to play in the afternoon or something. Literally have the 3 hole loops go out like wheel spokes and have a range area in there as well. Yeah, it might be wacky and certainly not traditional, but I bet it would work from a business perspective. And that is the key. I think good executive courses are great for the game, we need more of them, low cost alternatives to a normal round.

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you design an executive course?
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2010, 01:13:22 AM »
in accordance with the land and surroundings or is that just for web pages??? Helllo, Houston do you read me??

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you design an executive course?
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2010, 07:56:17 AM »
The first thing I would do is get rid of the word "executive"... It gives off all the wrong signals... of expense, of luxury, of exactly where we shouldn't be going in designing golf courses...

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you design an executive course?
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2010, 09:09:46 AM »
One of the hardest things for an architect is to spend a clients money on something he's not sure will work. The "executive" or less than par 70 course is one of these animals.  The original premise was to make a shorter course that busy "executives" read "working people" could find time to play.  If the long holes were shortened and the 5"s replaced by 4"s and 3's, it should speed up playing time.
So, what happened?  Well the quality of golf was dumbed down.  And since the course was less than "regulation" it couldn't charge the same.  This lower price alternative appealed to seniors, ladies and juniors who didn't need or want the length and didn't want to pay the going rate charged by a regulation course.
Since the gross revenue was marketly lower, the operations expenses had to be streamlined. This meant reduce maintenace costs and clubhouse service.  As a second generation of these courses came around, the architects had to adapt the designs to this new demographic and operations model.  The result was less shaping, less bunkers, smaller greens, and fewer tee options.
As the industry in general was on a upswing in all the above parameters, there became a greater and great disparity in the perceived overall quality of the experience and "Executive" course began to get a negative connotation associated with them.  The general veiw became that they were something substandard in every way populated by high handicappers who were slow players.  Anyone who could hit the ball out of their shadow feared a long round on a short course.
So, like Ally states, there is a negative association with the word, but not for the reasons he states.
We thought that this market was being short-shifted so we developed our own version of an executive course.  It was a 2,800 yd par 34 with 3-3's and 1-5, 3 tees and 21 bunkers - no cart paths and very walkable.  We did bent G,T,& Fwys.  Kept the 4 around or under 400,  made the 3's and green complexes as we would for a high-end course and the lone 5 480 (just to call it one).  We shaped the course in a faux-links style with undulating fairways but perimeter faux dunes mounding that kicked balls back into the center of the holes, which had wider-ish fairways.
After 15-years of fine-tuning, we found that the market demanded we lengthen the course at every opportunity, put in cart paths and lengthen our longest 4 into a short 5 (for 2 reasons) 1) most of the short knockers played it as a five and 2)it allowed us to be a par 35 and escape the "executive" stigma.  We maintained the place as an upper-end (but not high-end) daily-fee and had a nicely designed (architectually) clubhouse that was only 3,000 sf and no restraunt - only a grill.  We had starters and rangers and multiple pro shop cashiers to minimise service waits and a very big all-grass range, 2 practice greens and a short hole-chipping complex.
By keeping thecourse intersting an challanging around the greens and a higher than muni level of golfing experience, we were able to charge enough and draw enough younger and affluent players to fill the tee sheet.
Lessons learned: don't sacrifice quality or design interest. 4 tees even on a short course.  Looks hard/plays easy is a must.  People have to feel lke they are getting a deal/steal. Forcasts predicting bad weather hurts high-end courses - people won't risk it early in the week if the forecast is for a rainy weekend - but will on 9 because there is a better chance it may not rain all day and they will "get it in".  Have an extensive practice area.  Golfers will come in for a walk-on and settle for practicing if they can't get on. And Finally, having a few expensive cars in the parking lot is great sublime marketing.  It says "I could pay more elsewhere but I like it here".
Coasting is a downhill process

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you design an executive course?
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2010, 09:19:24 AM »
Although it's a Par3 course,here's some information on the recently opened Shadow Hills North Course(Schmidt-Curley) in Indio, CA:

http://www.golfbusinesswire.com/story/212502

http://www.southlandgolfmagazine.com/t-Courses_Shadow_Hills_Golf_Club_Opens_North_Course_Short_Par_3_Option0310.aspx
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Michael Baldwin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you design an executive course?
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2010, 09:38:55 AM »
Tim-

A friend of mine is coming to Chicago this weekend.  He just started playing golf last summer and wants to play while he's in town.  The course you just described was my first choice given my buddy's budget and game.  I've played there a few times and always enjoyed it.  All the goals you stated are apparent in the playing experience.  Calling it an executive course would be a complete misnomer, IMO.

Funny thing is, I read your post only moments after calling to get our tee time for Saturday afternoon.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you design an executive course?
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2010, 09:53:43 AM »
It seems to me that an "Executive" course may not work on a stand alone basis economically but does work in conjunction with another course as is done at Palm Valley and Shadow Hills.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: How would you design an executive course?
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2010, 11:13:02 AM »
I can vouch for the fact that kids and beginners really enjoy them more.  They've got some chances to make a par or bogey instead of always piling up a big number.

I'm not sure the economics of them are nearly as good as some here think, but I would have no problem building one if I had a client who was interested in that.

If I built one, it would remind you of North Berwick.

John Moore II

Re: How would you design an executive course?
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2010, 11:17:35 AM »
in accordance with the land and surroundings or is that just for web pages??? Helllo, Houston do you read me??
Well, thats kind of a given. But in reality, for a course like this, I would rather have a boring piece of land and shape it slightly to my needs. And given a boring piece of land, I'd just route the holes in my wagonwheel configuration and go with it.

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you design an executive course?
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2010, 05:48:42 PM »
Tim-

A friend of mine is coming to Chicago this weekend.  He just started playing golf last summer and wants to play while he's in town.  The course you just described was my first choice given my buddy's budget and game.  I've played there a few times and always enjoyed it.  All the goals you stated are apparent in the playing experience.  Calling it an executive course would be a complete misnomer, IMO.

Funny thing is, I read your post only moments after calling to get our tee time for Saturday afternoon.

Mike, I hope it's still being maintained as we had envisioned. I saw lots of dirt mounding along 1/9 going in.  Hopefully they don't turn it into a place to dump dirt.  It's now run by a management co. so they may have different objectives.  I wouldn't call it an Exec now but early on people did.
The GVN-9 across the street is a good example of an exec. but may be too hard for the demographic.  The only time I played it (scouting round w/HS golf team daughter before a match) it seemed that it was taking an awful long time to play as all it takes is one group of beginners looking for balls to jam up the works.

If they are still maintaining it, check out my 1/6 scale version of Muirfild putting course. I had lots of fun building that! but it looked like they may have blew up #5
Coasting is a downhill process

Chris Buie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you design an executive course?
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2010, 06:08:33 PM »
If any of you archies are going to design an "executive course" then I suggest you play the one at Grandfather G&CC first.  It's a magical little adventure that takes you much higher up on the mountain than the main course.  There are a few "par-4's" which are under 300 yards.  But mainly it is shorter holes, some very short.  Several are pretty much just a tee and a green - with nature taking its course in the middle.  The greens can be smaller since the shortest clubs are being used.  We used to just play it with a 9-iron and a putter.  It is about as much fun as you can have in 2 hours. 
Dormie Club is supposed to have a full par-3 course in the near future.  South of the main course and very close to HWY 73.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you design an executive course?
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2010, 06:09:15 PM »
The future of golf design according to Bobby Weed:

http://www.golfdom-digital.com/golfdom/201005#pg6

I recently enjoyed playing Hale Irwin's Lake Course at www.palmvalleygolf.com so much so that I broke 70!!!

The Hale Irwin-designed Lakes Course was created to provide players with a high-quality alternative to the Palms Course. With a par of 62, players will enjoy a fun and challenging round of golf in a considerably less amount of time. Combined with Palm Valley's expansive practice facility, Palm Valley Golf Club offers one of the Southwest's most complete golf experiences and sets itself apart from other Phoenix Arizona golf courses.


The Lakes Course
Par 62, Designed by the legendary Hale Irwin
Gold Tees: Yardage - 4745  Slope - 100  Rating - 62.4
Blue Tees:  Yardage - 4246  Slope - 98  Rating - 60.8
White Tees: Yardage - 3747  Slope - 93  Rating - 58.9


How much time would 10 shots really save you? My guess: zip. Maybe if it was a really core course - minimal green to tee distances, etc - you might save a little, but probably not nearly as much as you'd think.

The courses like this that really work are the old courses that are owned by mom and pop operation with the minimum investment and maintenance. Doing this around virtually any major metropolitan area - even the Burgh, with relatively reasonable real estate prices - would simply be cost prohibitive.

Nice idea, though.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you design an executive course?
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2010, 06:13:49 PM »
I would go play Pinehurst #3 about 10 times before designing a short course.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you design an executive course?
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2010, 06:50:47 PM »
I wouldn't build an "executive course".  I would just build a course that happens to be short presumably because the land was too expensive or not available for a modest length course.  I find myself growing tired of all the qualifiers we use for great courses which aren't of championship standards.  Courses are just courses.  there is no need for dopey qualifiers to help "explain" why courses can't be considered among the best.  All that said, the ultimate course of this type (and beyond) is Painswick.  Its hard to think of a better style course for the wee ones and parents to enjoy together or apart. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you design an executive course?
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2010, 07:04:41 PM »
I have just completed a 5500 yarder Par 68 on 70 acres. We are playing 12 holes at the moment just for the members. 7 par 3 holes incuding a 105 yard 1st hole, 18th finishes with a 3, there are 3 par 5 holes, about 22 bunkers on the whole course, irrigation on tees, greens and fairways and the greens are pretty much inspired by my last few years on this site, quite wild.... but overall FUN.
The members view so far is also exactly that.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you design an executive course?
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2010, 09:23:00 PM »
George,

Palm Valley Lakes gets a lot of play from kids, beginners, seniors and cost conscious golfers. I was there for an event sponsored by a local group. I would not hesitate to play there again as a warm up course upon my next winter visit to AZ. Next time, I'll bring my camera.


 
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

John Moore II

Re: How would you design an executive course?
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2010, 12:50:32 AM »
The future of golf design according to Bobby Weed:

http://www.golfdom-digital.com/golfdom/201005#pg6

I recently enjoyed playing Hale Irwin's Lake Course at www.palmvalleygolf.com so much so that I broke 70!!!

The Hale Irwin-designed Lakes Course was created to provide players with a high-quality alternative to the Palms Course. With a par of 62, players will enjoy a fun and challenging round of golf in a considerably less amount of time. Combined with Palm Valley's expansive practice facility, Palm Valley Golf Club offers one of the Southwest's most complete golf experiences and sets itself apart from other Phoenix Arizona golf courses.


The Lakes Course
Par 62, Designed by the legendary Hale Irwin
Gold Tees: Yardage - 4745  Slope - 100  Rating - 62.4
Blue Tees:  Yardage - 4246  Slope - 98  Rating - 60.8
White Tees: Yardage - 3747  Slope - 93  Rating - 58.9


How much time would 10 shots really save you? My guess: zip. Maybe if it was a really core course - minimal green to tee distances, etc - you might save a little, but probably not nearly as much as you'd think.

The courses like this that really work are the old courses that are owned by mom and pop operation with the minimum investment and maintenance. Doing this around virtually any major metropolitan area - even the Burgh, with relatively reasonable real estate prices - would simply be cost prohibitive.

Nice idea, though.

Well, you could probably get some real cheap land around Detroit these days. But then again, why would you want to? That place is dying. You could build it fairly cheap there, I think, but there are few people to play it.


I would go play Pinehurst #3 about 10 times before designing a short course.

The problem with #3 is that is has a few really screwy holes, from like 6 to 8 if I recall. And in all honesty, its not that interesting. The greens are, but the rest of the course is really mundane, IMO.

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you design an executive course?
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2010, 11:57:25 AM »
without water as a hazard

I saw a soon to be built plan yesterday for a junior course that crossed a creek 7 times - in 9 holes....
I guess when you only see the best golfers in the world play you assume 10 year olds can do the same.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you design an executive course?
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2010, 12:05:43 PM »


I saw a soon to be built plan yesterday for a junior course that crossed a creek 7 times - in 9 holes....


Now if they stock that creek with some brook trout, there may be some well rounded youngins come out of there. ;)

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you design an executive course?
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2010, 12:16:31 PM »
Inspired by this article



Generally, the executive courses I have played have been pretty bland.  How would you design one to be economical and accomodating to the beginner but interesting for a GCA geek or a good player who is introducing someone to the game?

How about some form of replica course with several (if not all) holes modeled after famous par 3's and shorter par 4's around the world? If you pick and choose carefully you could come up with something for all.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you design an executive course?
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2010, 12:23:37 PM »
Inspired by this article



Generally, the executive courses I have played have been pretty bland.  How would you design one to be economical and accomodating to the beginner but interesting for a GCA geek or a good player who is introducing someone to the game?

How about some form of replica course with several (if not all) holes modeled after famous par 3's and shorter par 4's around the world? If you pick and choose carefully you could come up with something for all.

Options, options, options...

The fact that the course by its nature has broken away from that par-72 -10-4-4 "championship" mould should (in theory) give the architect a slightly more free hand in building in some interesting and unusual features... Client dependent of course...

At least that's the way I would like to think it might work...

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How would you design an executive course?
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2010, 12:36:58 PM »
Inspired by this article



Generally, the executive courses I have played have been pretty bland.  How would you design one to be economical and accomodating to the beginner but interesting for a GCA geek or a good player who is introducing someone to the game?

How about some form of replica course with several (if not all) holes modeled after famous par 3's and shorter par 4's around the world? If you pick and choose carefully you could come up with something for all.

I already did that 8 -3's and 1-4 (naturally that was #10 Riviera).  The problem is most of the famous par 3's are so because they tend to be on the difficult side.  It was, however, a good opportunity to learn by recreating the holes while giving the owner what he wanted.
Coasting is a downhill process

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