Seth Raynor Is America's Best Links Engineer

[Joe Bausch]

That is the title of an early 1923 article from the Daily Eagle.

[Willie_Dow]

Joe:  Who is Marion F. Makay ?  What else has he written ?

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks, Joe. And wonderful picture emerges from just that short article.  The reference to Raynor discovering a field of endeavour in which he could throw himself whole-heartedly is particularly nice.  I don't know anything about it, but I'd imagine that Raynor didn't do much (if any) writing about golf course architecture, or his Ideas on same. If that's the case, it's a pity -- sometimes those quiet engineering types, while not flamboyant word-smiths, have a wealth of thoughtful and insightful ideas and opinions that they don;t tend to share, just express on the ground.

Peter

[Phil McDade]

Interestingly, another engineering/golf architect -- William Langford, a civil engineering by training -- was quite a prolific writer: about golf, his architectural philosophy, his notions of shot values and the length of holes, and myriad other subjects. Raynor and Langford, who apparently never met (although there is some speculation Langford might have seen and/or played Macdonald/Raynor courses), are considered to have the two most "engineered" looks to their golf course designs of any of the Golden Age architects.

[Joe Bausch]

Joe:  Who is Marion F. Makay ?  What else has he written ?

Willie, I have very little right now by Marion Makay.  I'm looking for more.  The only other article I have is one on the Cravath Estate course.

[Joe Bausch]

Here is the only other article I currently have by Marion Makay on the course being built on the Cravath Estate, which I believe becomes the Creek Club.  This from the 1922 Daily Eagle.

[George_Bahto]

Joe, that is the Creek Club

They have a team here right now finishing up the final day of the inaugural Old Macdonald Cup Matches

[George_Bahto]

Joe thanks you for finding those article - great stuff

That first article matdches the profile that I half build of him perfectly

[Willie_Dow]

Thanks, Joe, for you findings.

Makay seems to be a good writer to study, and perhaps learn a bit more about the relationship of Raynor with other architects of that era.

[Phil_the_Author]

Joe,

You stated, "Willie, I have very little right now by Marion Makay.  I'm looking for more..."

You actually have a great deal more of his articles for he used to write under the nom-de-plume "Far and Sure"... 

[john_stiles]

In the first article,  what/where is the  Puerto Rico course ?

[Joe Bausch]

Joe,

You stated, "Willie, I have very little right now by Marion Makay.  I'm looking for more..."

You actually have a great deal more of his articles for he used to write under the nom-de-plume "Far and Sure"... 

Evidence please Phil?

[TEPaul]

"You actually have a great deal more of his articles for he used to write under the nom-de-plume "Far and Sure"... " 


Phil:

For whom did he write under the nom de plume "Far and Sure."

By the way, if anyone knows the identity of the pseudonym "Bunker Hill" in the Boston area for American Golfer I'd love to know it.
 
 

[Peter Pallotta]

Phil McDade - thanks, I didn't know that about Langford.

Can't get the image that the article paints out of my mind. A man not of that world -- not of the golfing establishment, not of golf played in college and at the amatuer level -- finding something he loved and having the modesty to be tutured so thoroughly on the principles of great architecture, and absorbing them not as a former golfer but as an engineer....and then sticking with what he had learned so faithfully.

Peter

[TEPaul]

PeterP:

I have no real idea if Macdonald was basically the first in architecture to essentially take on as his partner in architecture a professional engineer/surveyor in Seth Raynor. However, it most certainly does occur to me that Merion (MCC) may've been the first club to call on Macdonald (1910) for advice following the inception of NGLA (Macdonald's first effort partnering with a professional engineer/surveyor).

And so what was the basic nature of the advice Macdonald (Whigam) provided MCC? Seeing as Macdonald had formed a committee of amateur/sportsmen to create NGLA and he also first enlisted the services of a professional engineer/surveyor at NGLA, it may not have been coincindental that MCC did the same thing----eg formed a committee of amateur/sportsmen to create their course also with a professional engineer/surveyor on the team or committee; in MCC's case Richard Francis who was also a member of MCC. It is probably not a coincidence either that William Flynn who essentially cut his teeth at Merion took on a professional engineer when he formed his partnership of Toomey and Flynn with Philadelphia engineer Howard Toomey.

By the way, I think I'm correct in saying that the Homestead history of the Cascades course and owner Fay Ingalls does include a mention that Ingalls' first choice for the Cascades course was Seth Raynor but he was too busy at the time and so Ingalls turned to William Flynn that the Homestead history (actually I think Ingalls' own records) mentioned was not as well known at the time as Raynor.

[TEPaul]

JoeB:

When did you come across that Brooklyn Eagle article about The Creek Club (the "Cravath Estate")?

I don't know if the men who formed that club can be considered as the biggest group of "Captains of the Universe" to ever form a golf club but if they weren't they sure were close. 

[herrstein]

This is absolutely fascinating stuff. Thanks, Joe.

[Joe Bausch]

JoeB:

When did you come across that Brooklyn Eagle article about The Creek Club (the "Cravath Estate")?

Today, in between graduation ceremonies.  

[TEPaul]

"Today, in between graduation ceremonies.    "


Joe:

Really? That's an odd coincidence since I got it a few days ago from a source in New York.

[George_Bahto]

John Stiles:

Raynor esigned a course called "Berwind" for the Condado-Vanderbilt Hotel, in PR, a Vanderbilt chain of hotels he built a few courses for.

[TEPaul]

George:

"Berwind" is the name of a big-time Philadelphia/Newport family from the old days (one of the biggest mansions of Newport belonged to the Berwind family)----eg one of the biggest coal company operations in West Virginia in the old days. That was the reason for the name "Berwind" on the course in PR.

The last scion of the Berwind family is Graham Berwind who took the vestiges of that massive Berwind Coal Co and created the modern day Berwind Corporation, a no equity wholly privately owned entity with supposedly 30-50 medium-sized corporations all over the world. Berwind Corp is one of about 4-5 entities in Philadelphia who actually have their own airport on the far side of the Philadelphia International Airport. He could be the richest person in Philadelphia presently. I think he's about 85 and not long ago I heard he is definitely not well. He also happens to be my neighbor immediately abutting my farm to the northeast (one of his many residences).

I think I'm about totally tapped out of some of the dramatic stories I've told on this website over the years but at some point get me to tell you the story of the time I flew down to somewhere in the Bahamas on a Berwind Corp G-5, took a leak, had a smoke, jumped right back on it with the two pilots and one helluva beautiful stewardess and flew right back up the coast to Philadelphia. It was one of the most breath-takingly beautiful sunset evenings I have ever seen in my life going back up the coast.

[Mike Cirba]

Riddells Bay in Bermuda has always been mentioned as a Dev Emmett course.

The initial article seems to attribute Raynor.   

Some great stuff here.

Joe...I did dig into the "who is Marion F. Makay" per your request.   Very, very little to be found, other than he lived in Sea Cliff, Long Island, and seemed to live until the 50s.

[George_Bahto]

Mike I have an article written at the time RB was being built and it names it as a Macdonald Raynor course and I also have it mentioned in an aritlcle I got when I first visited Lookout Mountain.

Here again I think we have Dev Emmet left there to supervise the construction (while they were building Mid Ocean, probably) - so Joe's find is the third mention ........................   good enuf for me

[Willie_Dow]

You will note that Joe's first article mentions Riddles and Mid-Ocean as Raynor designs.  He may have had a hand in Belmont as well ??

[George_Bahto]

Willie - I've not seen anything about that one