AAC 2 Entry 10. Old Mill Golf Club

[Alex Miller]

Hi guys, this is my golf course that I submitted for the AAC. I didn't have a name for it, I didn't do a write up of my design philosophy, I didn't include facilities, cartpaths (though I wouldn't want any ), or a clubhouse. There are more pictures to follow but for now here is my routing. I think with more experience in sketchup I can improve my final product, but for my first ever attempt at routing a course over a topo map I'm very proud of it.




The scorecard:

Hole      1       2       3       4       5       6       7      8      9       Out   10    11    12   13    14     15    16    17   18      In      Total
Par       5       4        3       4       4       3       4       5       4     36      4     3      5      4     4     5       3      4      4       36      72
Black   570  325   170   485   395   245   465   625   450    3730   425  215   550  320  445  545  195   475   480    3650   7380
Blue   540   300   150   445   360   225   425   575   430   3450     395   200   530 280  405   480 175   435   445   3345   6795
White520   280   120   420   320   195   365   510   365   3095     360 175    490   245   360   465   150   400   415   3060   6155
Red   455   245   110   375   285   175   305   450   285   2685   295    155    425   225   310   415   135   365   380   2705   5390
Hcp   8   16   18   4   14   12   10   2   6      7   9   11   17   13   5   15   1   3      

Let's here it!

[Garland Bayley]

Let's call it The Miller Time Golf Club.

[Jim Colton]

Alex, can you show us pics of #5, #14, #16. 

[Nick Campanelli]

Alex, inspiration for your #5?

[Nick Campanelli]

Alex, I just finished going through your routing, and there are a lot of cool holes, especially the approach shots to a number of the par fours.  Similar questions to the others, and then a few specific to your design.  

Did you base your routing around a certain hole / group of holes?    

What did you consider your strongest / weakest holes?

Hole 2:  Influenced by Riviera 10?  If so, you are trying to entice to golfer to drive up the right fairway leaving an awkward approach to a shallow green.  The smart play would be left off the tee.  With most of your green blind from the tee (unlike Riviera), do you think the tease would be reduced, and the player would be more likely to play left simply to be able to see the flag on the approach?  All that said, its still a neat hole.

Hole 10:  I think the approach to this green is unique, and it appears the angle into the green increases in difficulty as you move right in the fairway, correct?  Was this one of the holes you placed first?    

The one thing I find awkward is that a few tees overlap with their previous green.  Holes 5, 15, and possibly 14 show this overlap, and it seems like this may throw the safety flag Tim Nugent alluded to earlier...  

[Garland Bayley]

Alex,

I think you are a freakin' genius. Did you have to submit before getting to finish tidying up? Rough but great.

PS

Check out the original thread. With a 4th judge checking in you have moved up.

[Garland Bayley]

Alex,

Help me out. Are you Ryan's buddy that was arguing for being more satisfied with building from nothing than finding great holes in great land? I hope you can see from this exercise that very few people can find great holes on good land like you can. Give up that other nonsense and stick to what you are good at.

[Alex Miller]

Alex,

Help me out. Are you Ryan's buddy that was arguing for being more satisfied with building from nothing than finding great holes in great land? I hope you can see from this exercise that very few people can find great holes on good land like you can. Give up that other nonsense and stick to what you are good at.

Yes, I supposed I have learned my lesson  a bit. Thanks for all of the praise, I can't believe I haven't heard a negative comment yet really, but I am very proud of my product. In some sense there is part of me that still feels turing a 2 site into an 8 golf course is better than turning a ten site into a ten golf course, but I have a much greater appreciation for the latter now.

Alex, I just finished going through your routing, and there are a lot of cool holes, especially the approach shots to a number of the par fours.  Similar questions to the others, and then a few specific to your design. 

Did you base your routing around a certain hole / group of holes?   

What did you consider your strongest / weakest holes?

Hole 2:  Influenced by Riviera 10?  If so, you are trying to entice to golfer to drive up the right fairway leaving an awkward approach to a shallow green.  The smart play would be left off the tee.  With most of your green blind from the tee (unlike Riviera), do you think the tease would be reduced, and the player would be more likely to play left simply to be able to see the flag on the approach?  All that said, its still a neat hole.

Hole 10:  I think the approach to this green is unique, and it appears the angle into the green increases in difficulty as you move right in the fairway, correct?  Was this one of the holes you placed first?   

The one thing I find awkward is that a few tees overlap with their previous green.  Holes 5, 15, and possibly 14 show this overlap, and it seems like this may throw the safety flag Tim Nugent alluded to earlier... 

I'm well aware that the back tees play close to the previous green, but one thing to point out was those are the black tees, so 5% of the golfers who play my course will play them. Also that 5% is probably more than capable of not hitting 40 yard hooks or slices  . My site is after all treeless.

Thanks for picking up on hole 10. I tinkered with it for a while and the fairway bunkering really adds strategy to the hole IMO. As for #2, not every short par 4 is influenced by the 10th at Riv  . I kind of just found that wrap around greensite and the terrain gave me the split fairway right away. It's actually much different than Riviera's from ground level because it's a huge hill and not bunkers that the golfer is avoiding. More linksy. Actually it's probably more inspired by 3(?) from Barnbougle.

[Alex Miller]

Alex, can you show us pics of #5, #14, #16.  

Here you go Jim. First 5, which was easy to find the greensite for, but took me a while to route the rest of the hole. In the end I think it has a lot of strategy to it and the look off of the tee doesn't bring the rest of the hole down.






And Nick, I wish I could say that was inspiration, but besides the greensite, this was kind of a connector hole. Just even bringing up a comparison to the cape hole at NGLA is saying something, so thanks .

[Alex Miller]

Hole 14. I immediately found this greensite and the hole was not hard to find either, wrapping around the hillside. I did try to leave a landing area where you could lay back with a fairway wood and have a flattish lie but a worse angle to the green. The drive really is a huge risk reward decision and dictates how the hole will be played. One of my favorites.

[Alex Miller]

16. Glad you asked for this one Jim because I went a different direction to this greensite than everyone else. First of all my 15th set it up by going north there, but I thought the hillock in front of this green would be a cool and very intimidating hazard. I gave a bail out area even though there is plenty of room to carry the hill. I also moved the forward tee out wide so the players from that tee would have more margin for error.

[Garland Bayley]

Alex,

Help me out. Are you Ryan's buddy that was arguing for being more satisfied with building from nothing than finding great holes in great land? I hope you can see from this exercise that very few people can find great holes on good land like you can. Give up that other nonsense and stick to what you are good at.

Yes, I supposed I have learned my lesson  a bit. Thanks for all of the praise, I can't believe I haven't heard a negative comment yet really, but I am very proud of my product. In some sense there is part of me that still feels turing a 2 site into an 8 golf course is better than turning a ten site into a ten golf course, but I have a much greater appreciation for the latter now.

Alex,

I suspect there may be no such thing as a ten site. Get your appreciation from making connectors holes that rate 10 on an 8 site. That's how you will get your rating 10 golf courses. I think Mr. Doak would agree with that. I believe he has talked about making connectors at Pacific Dunes, which most would agree is his 10.

[Alex Miller]

Well, as I have no real experience, I guess I can only talk theoretically

[Alex Miller]

Another look at the site, this one shows off the terrain better.

[Alex Miller]

Alex, I just finished going through your routing, and there are a lot of cool holes, especially the approach shots to a number of the par fours.  Similar questions to the others, and then a few specific to your design.  

Did you base your routing around a certain hole / group of holes?    
Yes and no. I formed my routing from finding a handful of natural greensites that I had to have. I didn't go through and find every single one on the map, just the best ones. I then tried to find the best holes which go to those greensites and connect them with other good holes. I found the 18th green first and knowing I wanted my theoretical clubhouse on higher ground I looked along the ridge in the middle of the property. The greensites I had to have were 18, 16, 15, 14, 10, 5, 3, and 2. I routed the back nine first, then 2, 3, and 9, then the rest of the front 9.


What did you consider your strongest / weakest holes?
Those holes I mentioned above I consider my strongest holes. I probably like #2 the best because of the amount of strategy involved in that short par 4. My weakest holes are probably 6,7, and 8. I really wanted to incorporate hole 2 into my routing. 3 and 4 evolved after that, but I had nothing connecting to my 9th hole. I think they turned out Ok, but they're weaker than the rest of the course, specifically 7. I was always concerned about hole 8 fitting in with the rest of the course because a stream splitting the fairway doesn't exactly fit in with the look of the rest of my course, but it looked cool so I went with it. 

[Mike Nuzzo]

Very nice Alex
I had you as my winner in the clubhouse for a while.
Very interesting holes, variety in directions and even a triangle 9-11.
I think you took some chances where Jim didn't.

Here is why I put you as runner-up.

over bunkered
I couldn't hit many of those fairways if I missed my tee shot - those skinny little bits on  1, 10, 15 - George Pazin couldn't hit those let alone someones grandmother.
I thought the tucked greens were very nice, but a few too many - a little overdone or repetitive.
Your 8th was too hard compared to Jim's similarly located hole.
I was concerned with for the safety of the players on 9 green while teeing off on 10 - that looked worse than the one on 5.

Cheers

[Alex Miller]

Thanks Mike.

FYI those skinny little bits are actually almost as wide as Nick's fairways. #1 is 40 yards, it just looks narrow compared to my generous 1st hole landing area. #10 narrows to 15 yards, but there's also an alternate fairway at that point too, so it's more like a 60 yard wide fairway with a centerline hazard. #15's fairway is still 25 yards wide and slopes in like a chute. Those are all measured at the narrowest points. I think the scale and width of the rest of my course may have fooled your eye.

Here's a pic of the tee shot on 10. Again it's just the back tee that has any issue, so that's probably only 5% of play, and really with the lines of play the risk is minimal.

The defense rests  

[Mike Nuzzo]

Sorry Jim
I meant the players on 11 green while teeing off on 9.

I'd love to play your course - except for #8. 

[Alex Miller]

Sorry Jim
I meant the players on 11 green while teeing off on 9.

I'd love to play your course - except for #8. 

I hope you're on the right thread. 

Here's 9 from the tee. The two tees on the right are for 12 and go to the right out of this picture. I don't think this looks dangerous, did you think 9 played from the tees on the right? Also, I'd love to here what's wrong with 8, besides it being a bitch of a par 5. I struggled with that hole for a while.

[Greg Tallman]

I believe you could fix the issue of the tees on holes 9 and 12 by using a common teeing ground for the back tee of each hole. Each would be shortened a bit and shifted to the right using almost teh mid-point bewteen each back tee. it appears this could work without creating issues with safety on 11 green for tee shots from 9 and the same on 8 green for tee shots from 12. Or you could just make 12 a brutish par 4 just under 500 yards from the tips.

Another option would be to make 11 a short par three tucking the green back around the creek with trouble left and long and bail out right. This would greatly free up the tee areas for 9 and 12 and again creat a possibility for a shared tee for the back tee of 9 and 12 while the other tees(those used more frequently) for 12 could be just off the 11th green.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Alex
Have you been to a GCA outing?
I don't think you want McBride laying sprawled out cold on 11 green hit in the head by one of his friends.
There are a lot of hit and hopers here.

As for 8 I couldn't hit either fairway with my 2nd shot.
I'd get rid of the right fairway and put 1/2 of it on the left.
Now you are back in business...

[Alex Miller]

Alex
Have you been to a GCA outing?
I don't think you want McBride laying sprawled out cold on 11 green hit in the head by one of his friends.
There are a lot of hit and hopers here.

As for 8 I couldn't hit either fairway with my 2nd shot.
I'd get rid of the right fairway and put 1/2 of it on the left.
Now you are back in business...

You couldn't hit one of 2 40 yard wide fairways?!?! Here's to hoping your golf game gets better.


A look at 8. The playing corridor is about 100 yards wide with a stream bisecting. With fast and firm conditions this hole is even reachable! (assuming the golfer is playing the appropriate tee and smokes 2 shots)





It's a hole that's different from the rest of the course, but still a good one. And fun too!

[Tim Nugent]

The last illustration showing the green contours (you may want to ask Tom Doak for an internship) show the validity of the right fairway - if the pin is back.  Without the severe ridge/falloff to the low back section, there would not be a strategic advange of one fwy vs the other (except if your personal ballflight woild bring the creek into play).  But, with such a feature in the green, the angles of approach become critical.

[Mike Nuzzo]

All right Alex...
I'll hit the fairways only if I'm inspired.... 

Why does the green look as wide as the fairways.
The look to play narrower as well - they both slope into the creek.

I won't argue with the designer about any raw data anymore.

[Alex Miller]

All right Alex...
I'll hit the fairways only if I'm inspired....  

Why does the green look as wide as the fairways.
The look to play narrower as well - they both slope into the creek.

I won't argue with the designer about any raw data anymore.

haha. Fair enough. I don't know why I argued with you of all the judges you liked mine the best!  

By the way, I tucked many greens to give them more defenses without bunkering. The problem with this site was that there were few slopes which were steep enough for runoffs so tucking behind a hill was another way to ask the player to hit a high shot with spin to access some hole locations. Also, I like the look.