[Doug Braunsdorf]

This will be held the first full week of June.  Is anyone planning on attending?  Three nines by Ross, and one by Banks.  This should be interesting, as my understanding of the course is that it's shorter by modern standards, but retains very tough greens.  PM me if interested in meeting up.

[Bruce Katona]

This should be a solid test for these players.....can't woit to see the posted scores.

[Bill Brightly]

Really good course (s). The greens will make make you cry! I bet the winner will be a college kd wth nerves of steel.

[JESII]

Haven't played Montclair, but the description so far would seem to favor an older guy with more local experience...although there will most likely be a larger number of young kids, "short by modern standards" and "tough little greens" would give the edge to a more strategic player.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Montclair looks great. I've spent most of the last 2 weeks making some small adjustments here and there and all over the mountain side. First of all, it has been a treat to work there, the crew there do an amazing job running a huge facility.

On to the golf, there are so many things to learn at Montclair. You have the Banks 9 which looks like so much fun. I don't think there is any "style" that works better on steep terrain than the CBM/Raynor/Banks/National style. Then there is another 27 Ross holes. While I know for a fact that plenty has changed over the years, the combination of Ross and Rees, there are so many cool green complexes and unique holes that come from the extreme property and sheer volume of golf.

Cant wait to play it.

[Jaeger Kovich]

A quick photo of the redan on the banks 9 snapped last week from my phone.. first time posting a picture.. bare with me

[Jaeger Kovich]

Another one from the mound on the right corner of the green.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Jaeger,

  Good photos!  I looked over the fence once--doesn't the redan play a little uphill, IIRC?  I am hoping Pat Mucci, Matt Ward, and Dean Paolucci can weigh in.  Let me know if you'll be around, I work about 20 mins away and will likely come up for a half-day.

[TEPaul]

Jamie Slonis, how are you playing fella? Can you win this thing this year? You ain't getting any younger you know?! Who's on your bag? Is it still your dad? You might want to consider me. This might be a one time offer, and I just might bring you home where you want to be---ON TOP!

[Patrick_Mucci]

I had heard that they're playing the 2nd and 3rd nines.

I always thought that nines 2 & 4 provided the best test.

The # 1 was a great nine until it was seriously compromised for a horrrendous reason, the installation of tennis courts.
Holes # 1, 2, 8 and 9 were changed over the years as was the 5th green and perhaps the 4th green.

My dad caddied at Montclair in the 20's, as did I in the 50's.

It's a terrific mental and physical test, but, modern day length has diluted some of the challenge.

Par is a very good score.

[Matt_Ward]

Too bad the 2nd nine is not being used.

The combo for the '85 US Amateur was the 2nd and 4th nines.

Montclair's main defense, as a number of people have already pointed out is the greens. They are quite fast and sloped and come in all sizes and configurations. One of the lesser defense items that is noticed is the terrain -- you have 250 feet of elevation change from the clubhouse to the rear of the property.

Weather will play a major factor -- if the course is especially dry I don't see many players breaking 300 for four rounds.

One final thing -- Montclair (#2 + #4 nines) may be the toughest 6,500 yard layout in all of Jersey when conditions are at optimum.

[JSlonis]

Jamie Slonis, how are you playing fella? Can you win this thing this year? You ain't getting any younger you know?! Who's on your bag? Is it still your dad? You might want to consider me. This might be a one time offer, and I just might bring you home where you want to be---ON TOP!

Tom,

I have a qualifying round for the NJ Am this Thurs.  We'll see how it goes, if I play decent, I'll make it.  I've never played Montclair.  The only thing I ever hear mentioned about the place is how brutal the greens are. Dad is no longer on the bag, he retired after getting some new valves for his heart a year and a half ago. He's doing great but he's not in looping shape.

Bill,

As of late, college kids usually don't fair all that well in the NJ Am for some reason.

[Matt_Ward]

To reiterate -- the greens at Montclair can at times be very fast. Will they be at top speed for very early June ?

Hard to say.

Too bad the 2nd nine is not being used -- the first three holes on that side are among the best at the facility.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Wow.  Montclair GC is excellent.  While I don't have any pictures, Dean Paolucci and I took in the final round of the State Amateur, played on the 3rd and 4th nines.  3rd nine is Ross, 4th is Banks.  Thanks, Dean for your insights on playing the course.

Previous information has said that the Ross nines are straight up and downhill, and Banks works his way down and up the hill gradually.

I didn't see a lot of the Ross holes, with the exceptions of #s 1,8, and 9.  All featured very interesting green contours, many of which I have not seen on Ross holes before--deep trenches and multi-tiered greens, specifically. 

The Banks nine is very interesting.  There are a number of templates used in an interesting way, and it seems Banks really did a good job of routing the course.  I noted a Punchbowl at #1, featuring a gulley in the green, Valley at 2, Redan at 3, a very interestingly presented Short at 7. 

The Short, in particular, looked intriguing, as the land is sloped right to left.  The green is built up considerably and features a subtle horseshoe.  Still, in contrast to other Short holes such as Knoll West, Forsgate, and The Creek, I found the left bunker kept drawing my attention, perhaps because it was presented more prominently with the slope of the hill. 

Looking at the 9th hole, given the placement on the land, I wondered if a Road green complex would have fit there.

The drive is slightly left to right.  There's a bunker to cross on the right side of the fw, or a player can play out to the left for a longer second to a green that is open in front. 

What is most interesting, and Dean pointed out to me, is that most fairways are of the reverse cant variety, which makes for interesting strategy. 

We walked up the 9th hole of the Third Nine, which reminded me of the 9th hole at Schuylkill CC.  The view from the clubhouse is inspiring-to look out on the course and see holes run away from you down the hill.  I loved it. 

Similar to Dean's home course, Glen Ridge, I noted a lot of subtlety here, less so than at GR, but more than many courses.  I could see the course biting those who try for too much and fail, and biting hard.  I hope to see it again, and walk all the nines, to compare and contrast the strategies. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Doug,

The green on # 2 on the 4th nine is very interesting.

A hybrid combo of a redan and road hole green.

It's like a modified "road hole" green with the back bunker being the road along with an expanded front bunker.

I made two of my best long putts on that green years ago in two rounds of the state best ball.
It was always a very, very difficult hole.
Unfortunately, modern day length has tempered it somewhat.

While the greens seem to be the focus that most people place on the golf course, I think there's another facet of the golf course that goes unmentioned.  The fact that you almost NEVER have a level stance.  You're almost always sidehill ( left and right), uphill or downhill. 

Someone once said, "if you can play Montclair, you can play anywhere"
I think I was that someone

[Matt_Ward]

Doug:

Someone has to explain to me how the 3rd Nine was chosen over the 2nd nine.

If the combo of the 2nd and 4th Nines worked for the '85 US Am -- then it would work just as well for this year's NJ Am.

[Keith Phillips]

Matt, you are correct - 2 & 4 were used for the US Am in '85...for the Ike in '02 nines 2 & 3 were used, and now for NJ Am '3 & 4 were used - not sure which nines were used for US Women's Am in '73?

I am a Montclair member and the 3rd nine is my favorite, but it is a close call...I think each nine presents abundant challenge and interest, but have no idea why 3 & 4 were selected this time...will ask around and find out.

Montclair stood up to the challenge at the Am, with the leaders tied at +4 after 72 holes - I walked a few holes on Tuesday and a the last four holes of regulation with leaders - 19-year old Pat Wilson finished birdie-birdie to get to sudden-death playoff, but the veteran Brian Komline prevailed.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Doug:

Someone has to explain to me how the 3rd Nine was chosen over the 2nd nine.

If the combo of the 2nd and 4th Nines worked for the '85 US Am -- then it would work just as well for this year's NJ Am.

Matt-

  I did not see the 2nd nine.  From the holes I did see on the third nine, I thought presented some interesting requirements. 

I would have liked to see the 5th hole of the third nine.  It appears from the aerial that the player must cross a creek twice, and bring it into play to have a good angle for the approach shot.

#7 on third nine featured an interesting green, as did #s 8 and 9.  I saw an experienced player hit hybrid on 8 to the blind fairway.  A younger player took driver and pushed it into a hazard up the right side.  The green had a great mound on the left side.  We didn't spend enough time there, I wondered if the player can use the mound in a strategic way, maybe to get the ball to the back of the green?  Keith Phillips, if you read this, would you weigh in, please?

I absolutely loved #9.  What a great green complex, and moreso because the approach is so uphill.  Shorter iron approach, but 2 distinct shelves to the green and a deep trench in the center on what appeared to be a diagonal.  I saw several shots hit and spin back to the front of the green or the apron.

[Keith Phillips]

Doug, 5 of 3 is the #

[Patrick_Mucci]

Keith Phillips,

Before the tennis crowd ruined the 1st nine, it was one hell of a nine holes.

Get the club to move the courts across the street and restore the 1st nine  

# 1, # 2, # 8 and # 9 were terrific holes and # 4 was as demanding of a hole as you could find in golf.

Unfortunately, # 4 and # 5 greens were softened over the years.

I'm trying to recollect if # 7 experienced any surgery, but, it was a great short hole with a terrific green.

284 or 4 over par is a very good score on # 2 and # 3.

Bobby Jones called Montclair the longest short course in America.

[Keith Phillips]

Doug, 5 of 3 is the #1 stroke hole on the 3rd nine - a power fade will leave a mid-iron approach to a truly treacherous green...the pin was in the valley for the final 36, which is the most forgiving location.

The mound on the center-left of 8 of 3 actually seldom comes into play, but it did on the final day with the pin back-left - the green has a strong right-to-left (prevailing) slope, and the mount counteracts that if you are putting from front center/left to the back-left pin.

9 of 3 is interesting - for players in the Am, 7-9 irons seemed to be favored for approach shots...for regular guys like me it's usually a 4 or 5 iron after a tee shot from the whites...regardless, it is nearly impossible to reach and hold the back tier (most popular pin position) from 125 yards-plus - long is death, and a little short generally rolls 20' off the front of the green leaving challenging chip...the best shot is actually to center-right of the green to leave an uphill putt from the valley.

[Keith Phillips]

Pat, I joined in 1996, well after the re-orientation of the first nine - it is frightening to think of 5 of 1 green before it was softened, as I find it to be one of the more subtly challenging greens on the property - I believe 7 of 1 is unchanged, and remains a great short par-4, albeit with a green that many find very challenging, even for Montclair - 7 of 1 is one of my favorite holes...in the member-guest a few years back they had the men playing from the forward tee (280?) and it became a very fun hole to take a run at.  Not sure if you have been to MGC this year, but I expect you would appreciate the massive tree removal to the left of 4 of 1 green...a great step along the right road...

With respect to the tennis courts, that land across the street beckons and maybe when the economy rebounds we will find a way to do something with it!

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Keith, on 9, will the ball stay in the valley part of the green if it lands there?  Dean and I saw several players go at the flag, to have the ball end up on the apron.  

I also liked the large grass bunker/depression around the left side of the green.  I wonder what it would be like maintained as fairway cut.  (I'm not saying it should be done, it's not my place to do so).  I imagine recoveries from there are almost impossible, from rough, given the sizes of the shelves on the green.

[Matt_Ward]

Keith:

The issue for Montclair is that a few confuse it with UMCC in Clifton. Montclair's best nines are #2 and #4 -- not even close with #3 which is OK in my mind. After the first three holes on #3 the rest is so-so stuff.

The issue for Montclair is NOT having green speeds that can approach uncontrollable -- I can remember the matches in the '85 US AM and the green speeds were the main topic -- the one notable one being the 4th hole on #2.

I have said this for some time -- but the #2 and #4 nines are among the best in Jersey -- and this is even more remarkable because of the absence of maddening length. Plenty of people mention ECCC which down the street but #2 and #4 at Montclair are key nine holes from the handiwork of Ross and Banks respectively -- how many courses can say they havethebest of two different architects for separate nines?

[Keith Phillips]

"Keith, on 9, will the ball stay in the valley part of the green if it lands there?  Dean and I saw several players go at the flag, to have the ball end up on the apron. 
DOUG IF THE PIN IS ON THE BACK TIER THE % PLAY IS ACTUALLY CENTER RIGHT, LEAVING A 20'-30' PUTT UP THE HILL - IF YOU AIM AT THE FLAG AND ARE LONG, YOU HAVE LITTLE CHANCE OF HOLDING THE TIER ON THE RECOVERY SHOT...ANYTHING SHOT STRAIGHT AT THE FLAG THAT COMES OFF SHORT WILL COME 5'-20' OFF THE FRONT OF THE GREEN
I also liked the large grass bunker/depression around the left side of the green.  I wonder what it would be like maintained as fairway cut.  (I'm not saying it should be done, it's not my place to do so).  I imagine recoveries from there are almost impossible, from rough, given the sizes of the shelves on the green."
THAT IS A GOOD QUESTION AND I HAVEN'T THOUGHT OF IT - I'M ACTUALLY CURIOUS ABOUT A LOT OF POSSIBLE CHIPPING AREAS AROUND GREENS, WHICH ARE NOW TYPICALLY MAINTAINED AT ROUGH HEIGHT

"Montclair's best nines are #2 and #4 -- not even close with #3 which is OK in my mind. After the first three holes on #3 the rest is so-so stuff."
DIFFERENT STROKES FOR DIFFERENT FOLKS - I LIKE ALL THE NINES, BUT 3 REMAINS MY FAVORITE, AND I REALLY ENJOY 4, 5 AND 9 OF 3

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