Is this a good golf hole?

[Mac Plumart]

I played this course the other day and I can't get it out of my mind.  In particular, this hole.

Is it good?  Or is it rubbish?  I have my thoughts and opinions, but I would like yours. 

For reference:

To carry that pond off the tee, you need to hit the ball about 210 to 220 in the air.  But there should be a significant wind at your back, so it should be doable.  Assuming you don't duff your tee ball.

The first bunker on the right is a carry off the tee of about 230 to reach and 250ish to carry.  Again, wind at your back.

That bunker right in the middle of the fairway is a carry of about 355 off the tee. 

The green is elevated and as you can see pretty heavily guarded by bunkers.  The day I payed it, I was told the greens were running at 13 on the stimp (and I totally believe that number they were FAST and SLICK!!!).  And the wind was about 20 mph constant with gusts of about 30 mph. 


Pros for the hole...test of golf.  You need to hit a solid tee shot that is straight.  Fade or slice and you are most likely in a bunker with a pretty long uphill approach shot to a heavily guarded green.  On the approach, again it is a test of golf.  Hit it solid with some loft or you will be rejected by the greens elevation and or slope and be in a bunker.  Don't loft the shot correctly, and you will not hold the green due to its slickness, slope and speed.

Cons for the hole...it appears to be highly penal in architectural terms.  Pond in front of the tee box serves to simply punish duffed tee shots.  Buinkers serve to punish fades and shots that draw too much.  Bunker in the fairway 355 off the tee box?  What is that there for? 

Anyway, like I said I am interested in your opinions. I can't stop thinking about the hole.  For the record, I loved it.  Every shot had drama, tension, risk/reward, etc.  But it seems to break every rule that the great architects wrote about.

Hence, the thread and questions.

[JC Jones]

Mac,

Good to see a post from you, long time no talk, buddy.  Second, I'm so glad you got to play this course.  It hasn't left my mind since I was lucky enough to play there.

Why the bunker 355 off the tee?  For big hitters like you, that's why.

I don't think the hole is too penal, the fairway is VERY wide and the carry is shorter the more left you play.

What was your wind direction?

[Paul Jones]

I played the hole and really enjoyed it.  The carry should not be an issue if you play the right set of tees.

[Mac Plumart]

JC...I did almost drive it into that bunker 355 out there, I was only 85 yards short and a little right of it with a 30 mph wind at my back.   

Paul...exactly, that is my point about the carry.  It isn't a problem off the tee unless you top your tee shot.  Is that good architecture?  I've seen other architects/courses get grilled about things like this.  Hence, the thread.

[Randy Thompson]

Looks like Florida, is it? The bunker helps frame the landing area and should not come into play for most good players. It an ok hole in my opinion but not for everybody that is for sure. Very punishing for the average golfer.

[CJ Carder]

You mentioned that the tee shot is downwind - how does this affect the approach? 

What kind of club are you hitting?

Is the green appropriately shaped / sloped to allow a ball to hold coming in downwind with less spin? 

What are the options of running it up?  It looks like from the picture that the runup comes in from the left... so assuming that you CAN run the ball in, that would make the left side the preferred angle, correct?  If this is the case, the shorter carry on the left (as JC points out) seems a bit backwards.

[Bill_McBride]

You mentioned that the tee shot is downwind - how does this affect the approach? 

What kind of club are you hitting?

Is the green appropriately shaped / sloped to allow a ball to hold coming in downwind with less spin? 

What are the options of running it up?  It looks like from the picture that the runup comes in from the left... so assuming that you CAN run the ball in, that would make the left side the preferred angle, correct?  If this is the case, the shorter carry on the left (as JC points out) seems a bit backwards.

Or classic risk / reward?

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Mac, this is a great hole.

We played it into the wind (a little cross left to right but mostly into it) and I did not think it played too tough.

My 18 handicap brother hit his best drive of the day and his best iron of the day and two-putted for one of his two pars on the day.

I pulled my drive WAY left into the scrub and was able to recover with a shot to just off the front left of the green and got up and down for par with two putts.

I didn't hit it in the fairway (JC did and was right at it) but the bunker in the middle just might be the type that gets in your head on the approach. It's just one more thing to think about it hitting it over it.

As one of the only forced carries on the course I don't think the water off the tee is overly penal or unnecessary from the right tees.

The approach was though one of the harder ones on the course and demands a very precise shot to the front half of the green. I think the larger size (it's one of the biggest IIRC) makes up for that somewhat though. Especially compared to the 2nd green which was also uphill and guarded but not as big.

Definitely agree, a very good golf hole.

[Mac Plumart]

You mentioned that the tee shot is downwind - how does this affect the approach? 

What kind of club are you hitting?

Is the green appropriately shaped / sloped to allow a ball to hold coming in downwind with less spin? 

What are the options of running it up?  It looks like from the picture that the runup comes in from the left... so assuming that you CAN run the ball in, that would make the left side the preferred angle, correct?  If this is the case, the shorter carry on the left (as JC points out) seems a bit backwards.

Very interesting stuff!!

Wind is coming off the ocean pretty stiff, approach shot is uphill.  On my approach, I was hitting from 140 yards out just off the fairway to the right.  8 iron.  I had a slight fade on it, the ball hit the fringe area just shy of the green and was deflected into a greenside bunker.

Based on your ideas CJ and my play, I am thinking I came in from the wrong side of the fairway/green.  If I was on the left side of the fairway, just missing the green with the wind behind me would have allowed that ball to run up on the green rather than be deflected away and into a bunker.  This would open up an aerial option and a ground option.  Being where I was I had only one option, hit a lofted shot over the greenside bunkers and try to stick that ball right on those slick and sloped greens.  

Great stuff!

Is the green appropriatley shaped?  I am unsure.  The yardage book shows the green being 42 feet deep with 3 distinct landing areas.  the front one being almost a false front.  The middle sloping back to front.  And the one in the back right sloping to the right into a bunker.

[Ron Csigo]

I think this is a very understated hole.  IMO, a high/lofted shot is the preferred shot into this green.  If you happen to hit it closer to the 355 bunker, then you have a slight downhill lie for your approach shot to an elevated green.  Furthermore, the appropriate miss on your approach would be to the left side of the green as it is a tightly mowed area and the percentages of getting up and down are more likely.  Anything right and short in the bunkers is dead.

As for the tee shot for the shorter hitters, it is a narrow lay up between the pond and the series of bunkers to the left.  If you don't pick the correct line, your tee shot is either wet or in one of those fairway bunkers.  Pick your line wisely.

[Matthew Petersen]

I know what hole this is and, no, I've never played it.

Nevertheless, you asked for an opinion, and to me it looks like a hole from the Wilmette muni after an earthquake moved the green up 20 feet.

I don't like the look of it at all.  I don't like the planted trees left.  I don't like the watery look off the tee.  The cart part is hideous.   And I don't like the bunker up the gut.  Basically, unless this green is a clone of #1 or 6 at NGLA, I really don't see any redeeming factors.  There's nothing strategic here at all that I can see....

It looks like the definition of bomb and gouge to me.  Perhaps you have to hit it straight off the tee....so what?...that's required at the Jans....

Sorry, just one man's opinion....  

I am with you here. Most golf holes can be said to have strategic elements of you want to find them and knowing what course this hole is on and who designed it means we are disposed to want to see the brilliance. But when I look at this hole I tend to think, "If this was a Fazio hole, people would hate it."

[CJ Carder]

You mentioned that the tee shot is downwind - how does this affect the approach? 

What kind of club are you hitting?

Is the green appropriately shaped / sloped to allow a ball to hold coming in downwind with less spin? 

What are the options of running it up?  It looks like from the picture that the runup comes in from the left... so assuming that you CAN run the ball in, that would make the left side the preferred angle, correct?  If this is the case, the shorter carry on the left (as JC points out) seems a bit backwards.

Or classic risk / reward?

If, presumably, I'm aiming down the left side to get a better angle into the green, what am I risking really if that's the shorter carry?  Shouldn't the longer carry be the side with the better angle?  From the looks of it (and I've never played there), the right side would appear to have almost no redeeming value.  If most people are hitting 8-iron in (as Mac did), spin and holding the green would be a huge concern if you're trying to get it close from the air.  Regardless of whether the hole is on the front or the back, it seems like the better option is almost always in from the left so those bunkers don't come in to play as much.  And some type of mid-iron club (maybe 9-iron at worst) would allow the player to hit a lower shot, less affected by the wind, and access the various parts of the green.

Given all this, I think it's a pretty intriguing hole from the options on the approach.  Perhaps I'm over-thinking it and the tee shot was never really intended to be a decision factor.  Just execute the tee shot and then let the mind games begin.

[Sean_A]

I know what hole this is and, no, I've never played it.

Nevertheless, you asked for an opinion, and to me it looks like a hole from the Wilmette muni after an earthquake moved the green up 20 feet.

I don't like the look of it at all.  I don't like the planted trees left.  I don't like the watery look off the tee.  The cart part is hideous.   And I don't like the bunker up the gut.  Basically, unless this green is a clone of #1 or 6 at NGLA, I really don't see any redeeming factors.  There's nothing strategic here at all that I can see....

It looks like the definition of bomb and gouge to me.  Perhaps you have to hit it straight off the tee....so what?...that's required at the Jans....

Sorry, just one man's opinion....  

+1

Ciao

[Matthew Runde]

I think it's very hard to understand the proportions of the hole via one photo.  Here are two other views.  I'm pretty sure I have the correct hole.  I know I have the correct course, and I haven't played it.  I hope I'm not stepping on any toes by posting the photos.  If anybody wants me to remove them (the photos, not the toes), I'll be happy to do so.

[Mark Pearce]

I'm with Shivas and Sean. 

[Anthony Gray]

  Mac,

  I don't see what your complaints are about this hole. Looks like an easy 6 to me.

  Anthony

[Anthony Gray]

I think it's very hard to understand the proportions of the hole via one photo.  Here are two other views.  I'm pretty sure I have the correct hole.  I know I have the correct course, and I haven't played it.  I hope I'm not stepping on any toes by posting the photos.  If anybody wants me to remove them (the photos, not the toes), I'll be happy to do so.

  The centerline bunker 30 yards out keeps it from looking and and playing like its sister next to it. Any ball over that bunker should make the green and may be the best choice because the prevailing wind is usually to your back and a ball hittind the green with a mid iron may not hold. But the long miss is acceptable. A secound shot into a greenside bunker leaves a chance for par or two putt for bogey. Width off the tee so I like this hole.

  Anthony

[Mac Plumart]

Anyone and everyone, please don't feel the need to apologize for any critical comments on this hole.  The reason why I posted the picture and the thread is that I was really conflicted by it and wanted some discussions about it.  If I go by what I've read the great architects of the past write, this hole has one flaw after another.  If I go by what I felt while playing it, I liked it.  This is why I wanted to discuss it.

Matthew...great pic!!  It really is a great look at the hole.

[Anthony Gray]

Anyone and everyone, please don't feel the need to apologize for any critical comments on this hole.  The reason why I posted the picture and the thread is that I was really conflicted by it and wanted some discussions about it.  If I go by what I've read the great architects of the past write, this hole has one flaw after another.  If I go by what I felt while playing it, I liked it.  This is why I wanted to discuss it.

Matthew...great pic!!  It really is a great look at the hole.

   Did you talk to Ran before you started this thread. The Tennesse Highway Patrrol would love this hole because there are traps everywhere.

   Anthony

[David Whitmer]

Paul...exactly, that is my point about the carry.  It isn't a problem off the tee unless you top your tee shot.  Is that good architecture?  I've seen other architects/courses get grilled about things like this.  Hence, the thread.

I've never accepted the idea that a forced carry off the tee is bad architecture. In fact, it is somewhat rare to find a great golf course that does not have at least one hole that forces a carry off the tee...a few that come to mind are #13 ANGC, #15 Pine Valley (actually, almost every hole at PIne Valley), #17 Cypress, #14 National Golf Links, #5 The Golf Club, and the hole you have pictured here. Each of those holes will punish a topped tee shot. Heck, even the 18th at The Old Course will punish a topped tee shot. I know everyone has a different skill set, but if you are teeing a driver up and you are topping it, any water or lateral hazard you may encounter is among the least of your worries.

As for the hole in question, I like it. I find nothing wrong with a hole that asks you to hit a straight tee ball in order to be in good position to attack the green and the day's hole location. I don't look at the bunkers as punishing a fade or draw, I look at the large fairway as rewarding a well-played shot. I think the second shot and green complex are challenging as well. 

[Bill Brightly]

I do not know the course. Is the bunker at 335 a Principal's Nose? Those are typically not in play.

I like the hole but if the cuorse had a steady diet of penal holes like this, it would be tedious. To me, this type of hole hammers high handicaps while low handicaps barely think about the trouble.

Probably a low slope/high index rating on this curse?

[Anthony Gray]

   


   A long drive would leave a short iron and leave an easier approach.

         


  ARG





     

[Jim Franklin]

The hole looks familiar. What course is it again? I tend to agree with Shivas that there does not seem to be much there unless the green is all world. (It may be).

[John Sabino]

Mac - This is a good golf hole. It rewards good shots and penalizes bad shots. The green is more elevated than it looks and requires a precision shot to hold the wicked green. The hazards are doing what they are intended to do, which is make you and other golfers think and adjust their strategy. It's also good because the wind is tricky. I think it's a classic Seminole hole: it lulls you into thinking it's not that hard then hits you over the head if you make a mistake. John

[Mac Plumart]

Jim...It is 11 at Seminole.

Is the green all world?  Maybe.  I can't say for sure.  They ran at about 13 on the stimp the day I played it, so they were really fast.  I'll try to touch up Matthew's picture of the green to highlight the 3 landings areas of the green with their slopes later tonight.


Bill...per your question that bunker in the middle wasn't in play for me and appears to be pretty easy to hit over on your approach, which was why I was wondering its purpose.  To block a bump and run approach?  Guessing on that and looking for any insight.


Anthony...no tickets in Florida, right?  Breaking traditions!  


John...good stuff.  And in deed, Seminole hit me over the head time and time and time again.  Slightly mis-hit shots were brutally punished.  And if the wind wasn't properly accounted for, your shots were FUBAR'd.