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TEPaul

Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2002, 02:33:26 PM »
Brad;

Doak certainly didnt beat around the bush on that subject on here a year or so ago by simply saying many of the older courses just aren't worthy of restoration--never were in fact.

If an older course is bland it would seem to be a good candidate for redesign and enhancement and all I would hope is if that happened that the overall "style" or "look" would be matched, since personally, I think a juxataposition of modern  concepts or a modern "look" with the older ones looks terrible. I don't usually like to use the phrase "out of character" but that would be a good example of it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ben Cowan-Dewar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2002, 03:08:06 PM »
Jeff,
One you know well, Jasper, another superintendent job.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2002, 03:50:23 PM »
Brad,
I made a post on that same issue a long time ago, something like "how do you know if and when to restore your golf course".  It gets into that very controversial question of what is good and what is not so good?  
Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2002, 05:01:13 PM »
Brad
Who thinks that everything the dead guys did was great? I am under no illusions - I've seen mediocre results by Ross, Tillinghast, Thompson, MacKenzie, Alison, Park and Langford. I don't see Architecture preserving every building that Wright or Richardson designed. But they do recognize excellent works and/or important works, and Architecture does everything posssible to preserve those works. Does Golf architecture? Golf architecture has done a very poor job of recognizing, protecting and preserving its heritage. And to add insult to injury I see restoration credit be given to some very questionable work. What are examples of poorly built or mediocre designs that have recieved too much attention from those who think everything from the dead guys is great?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2002, 06:46:18 PM »
I don't have any examples of work that's considered to have been give too much attention that's not good but I would just have to assume that the career inventory of Donald Ross has been given generally high praise but with almost 400 courses to his credit he must have had a number of mediocre ones, to say the least.

Tom MacW, you say you've seen some less than good examples of Ross. It might be too much to ask you to name them but at least you could explain why you think they're mediocre without naming them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2002, 06:58:06 PM »
It would be futile of me to disagree with two minds like Tom Doak and Brad Klein when it comes to the word "Restoration." However, I have seen lots of great courses where one copuld say that yes, the architecture isn.t ground earthmoving or phenominal--especially when it comes to the prospect of dealing with green committees and the like, but still you can't help to think how great it would be to see certain features of that course restored. Tom and I have certainly been through it in conversations regarding Max Behr's Hacienda. Even Jim Urbina couldn't get Tom interested in it.

I think that if one doesn't try to expose the real design intent that has been lost over the years, whether it was built right or not, it should be addressed--IF the club has an open mind to it, or if they are the type of club that could be educated.  the problem is tha there are too many clubs that don't have a clue!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2002, 07:27:26 PM »
TE
Miami Valley in Dayton is a mediocre golf course. The site is very flat site with little exception. There is stream that comes into limited use but very little else of interest. The greens are not particularly good and the sand hazards are very geometric and not like other Ross courses I'm familar with. There are holes that are strategically sound, but there are also some that are lacking or a bit awkward. The course lacks definition. I'm not sure if its is the site, a less than inspiring design, lack of personal attention, poor construction crew/lack of execution or a combination.

Portsmouth Elks is also one that comes to mind. Lacking that finished look although a more interesting design on a better site - but none the less with several awkward holes. Springfield is for the most part excellent, but it is a combination of very good (mostly) and mediocre. The course is mostly very rolling with some very flat sections.

But I must say that the great majority of Ross courses I have seen are excellent and worthy of steadfast preservation.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #32 on: March 16, 2002, 07:37:11 PM »
Paul Richards:

Agree 100% with your comments / re: Skokie. In my mind, the course is among the 2-3 best in the Chicago area ... how it isn't listed among the very finest in America amazes me.

Redanman:

Ditto your comments on Plainfield. More results will be forthcoming this year. Kudos to the club and the efforts of Gil Hanse.

Also, have to give credit to Baltusrol for making a major effort to restore both the Lower and Upper. When the PGA is played in '05 I'm sure many will be very surprised.

Also, would like to second what's been said on Hollywood.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #33 on: March 16, 2002, 08:00:57 PM »
I'd be interested in what Pritchard did at Skokie - I recall reading in Brad Klein's book that he was trying to decide which direction to go - did he restore the course as Langford re-designed it?

Is Baltusrol restoring the original Tillinghast design and eliminating the features that RTJ and Rees have added over the years or are they melding the past and present?

Should the work at Hollywood be considered a true restoration?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2002, 05:03:47 AM »
Dunlop:

Your post as a supplement to Jeff Mingay's description of realistic restoration is excellent. You even go into the way various architects tend to handle restorations (if they can).

Some people ("purists") do feel that simply because a golf course and some of the holes are considered "classic" or that the original architect is considered "famous" that a restoration should be "exact" in every way and every detail.

The more I stay involved in the area of restoration the more I've come to realize that is very often not the best way to go for a variety of reasons and actually is one that is very rare. I'm not certain I've ever seen a restoration that returned a course to the way it once was in every way, in every detail--including length. Certainly agronomically I've never heard of a course being returned to the conditions of yesteryear or even considering it for a second!

Basically, to do that is simply impractical and fails to take into consideration a few of the most important aspects of all--how golfers play today and exactly how different that is from the way they once played or played when the course was "original", and also the extreme advances in agronomics and various maintenance practices that can be used benefically on classic courses today.

Recapturing the "design intent", including many of the "strategies" of an original design is not easy for many reasons, the major one being the factor of length requirements to somehow maintain original design intent and its "strategies" or former "hole requirements" for any level of player.

Obviously the least intrusive to original design and the least corruptive is to be able to simply add tee length to recapture the original essence of a hole but that's a luxury that exists only with luck, it would seem (other than the actual originally preplanned concept of "elasticity" for the future).

Certainly the likes of MacKenzie, Tillinghast and particularly Flynn spoke and wrote about "elasticity" but were clearly not able to preplan or design it in every case for many reasons some of which were valid reasons of "inelastic" design and routing factors!

Getting into rearranging, moving or redesigning the "features" of the "body" of a hole is not the way to go if possible but if "elasticity" is not available, what else is there to do if one is to maintain the original requirements and character of a hole? Even worse than altering the "body" of a hole is moving, altering or redesigning green-ends and greens!

The only other choice is to allow the hole to remain the same as original but to become weakened in strategic requirements or demand and likely quality as a result of the realities of how differently players hit the ball compared to yesteryear or when the course was "original".

It would seem that some believe that nobody should even touch a classic course, that nobody should make alterations or even try to reinterpret or recapture a classic course's requirments and demands simply because the course is "classic" but of course that's truly nonsense if one really thinks about it.

One of the best caveats I ever heard in this vein came from Jim Finegan. Following a long discussion about the interesting characteristics of "classic" architecture and great classic courses and how to maintain and restore them he said one should clearly understand the "old" but not forget that the "new" may offer benefits; interesting and even enhanced benefits to "classic" architecture, that applied correctly could make classic architecture even more interesting and even play better than at its very best in its own era!!

Isn't that an interesting concept? That classic courses can potentially play better than they ever did or could!? That things can be done today (new applications) that can make a really good "classic" course play even better than at it's original best?

A general example of this (and the one Finegan mentioned) is that the classic course was designed more for the ground game (of every type) and that does need to be restored to these old classic courses the way it was meant to be. But the aerial game, that did not exist originally in the same shot-making form as it does today can be cleverly factored into the design of the classic course (generally through maintenance practices--"the maintenance meld") without redesigning, altering or corrupting their original designs or design intents.

So since this is possible today through understanding and clever application one can make these classic courses play to the best of both worlds and eras (the original ground reliant game and the modern aerial reliant game).

Think about that. Originally the aerial game was just not there as it is today so if these classic courses can accomodate that modern aspect cleverly and interestingly these courses might actually offer more than they ever did! Options, in fact, may almost increase to the tune of about 50% if not even double!

What are some of those modern applications that the classic course never really had? Well, one is certainly the sophistication of the aerial game that didn't previously exist.

For that, increased green speeds can actually be used benefically if handled correctly. Increased green speeds handled correctly combined with the "ideal" green surface "firmness" can make the aerial game option something it never was and never could have been originally. Increased green speeds handled correctly has a way of "highlighting" or "turning the lights" up on the characteristics of classic greens and their surrounds more than ever before--certainly more than originally!

It's true that this kind of application may shift the ramifications of a hole's strategy down more to the green and green-end than ever originally intended but this is a fact of evolution that really cant be avoided and can be actually benefical in some ways. It's a small point and maybe not a "pure" one but shifting strategic ramifications to the green and green end is actually more "democratic". Unfortunately, though, strategic weight devolves to chipping and putting more than originally but that actually is more "democratic"! I realize many of the classic architects would probably not appreciate this shift but it is an interesting evolution that's not the end of the world architecturally!

Another modern benefical application is the whole idea of "chipping areas" and such. An architect like Ron Prichard (a "purist") will be the first to tell you that although "chipping areas" may have existed on classic courses "in effect" they were nothing like what they are and can be today primarily for reasons of modern agronomics and modern maintenance practices.

In other words the "chipping area" of today are so much more sophisticated and demanding in their multi-optional playing characterisitic than they ever were, certainly originally!

So restoration of classic architecture is good, obviously, but as Finegan said, we should not forget modern benefits that might even make it better than it ever was at its best in its original era!





« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2002, 06:35:30 AM »
I agree with Tom Paul. Like old buildings, old golf courses learn and adapt gracefully if allowed to evolve naturally without extraordinary outside influence. The original purpose or intent may change and infact improve - that is the genious of many old designs. And who is to say what the original intent or purpose of hole was anyway, unless the architect articulated his ideas that is a matter of interpretation.

It is particularly disturbing to see the heavy handed approach taken at Merion, Bethpage and Riviera. Is it necessary to destroy what was there and start over? Isn't it possible to simply maintain or to excavate? And in many cases restoration only requires the relatively simple act of removing unnecessary trees, opening and expanding the playing surfaces. Or moving tees back.

Unfortunately we have architects who believe they inderstand the thoughts of the original architect. "If he were alive today we believe that so and so whould have made this change" that is ludicrous. Too many golf courses over the years have been altered in this way or in similar ways.

A well designed old golf course should be left under the care of a fine superitendant(s) perhaps with minimal outside consultation if necessary. These men are not interested in elevating their reputation by asociation, they are simply interested in protecting and improving their golf course in the most economic and least intrusive manner. They are also most likely to spend the time to research the history of the course. And to spend the most time contemplating and thinking about the results of any potential action. In my opinion the inhouse group should be at the heart of any action. One of the founding fathers of the preservation movement was a French archaeologist by the name of A.N. Didron. In 1839 he stated:

"It is better to preserve than to repair, better to repair than to restore, better to restore than to reconstruct."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2002, 06:55:14 AM »
Jeff -

Add to your list:

Yeamans Hall and Holston Hills.

Fazio's  redo at Sea Island has been called everything from a restoration to a renovation to a new Fazio course.  Sea Island's own ambiguity about what to call it is interesting in and of itself.

We are at the very beginning of a restoration at the Athens CC in Athens, GA.  Contact me if you want to discuss it.

Bob
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2002, 06:57:01 AM »
Prichard's work at Skokie was so good that, frankly, I was
surprised to see that it didn't make Golfweek's America's Best
list.  

The only conclusion I could draw was that not enough
raters saw it last year, and some of the old evaluations must
still be included in its tally.

Because when you do see it, you too will be convinced that
it belongs on that list.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2002, 09:03:25 AM »
Jeff
Going back to Mike Cirba's comments 3/16, and his mention of Philadelphia Country - Spring Mill bunker restoration work.  I feel much credit should go to the superindendent's work there.
When I looked at the work, last fall, Mike Nulty, the super took me around and explained what they were trying to accomplish, and it sounded great.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ed_Baker

Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2002, 09:15:55 AM »
Tom,

You said it all in that one paragraph.Architects and contractors absolutely are not interchangable when it comes to the finished restoration product.

I also think that restoration architects evolve and to some degree can "devolve" during their careers. The "sameness" or "formulamatic" approach to restoration particulary if the architect specializes in just one of the dead guys work, can creep in slowly, and if you are not careful boiler plate restorations result. The "style" of the original masters is undeniable, but what made thier work great was the unique "freshness" that the individual sites created. The masters truly got the best golf out of each site which was their particular personal genius. The truly great restoration architect has the benefit of a good, sometimes great golf course already on the ground. The ultimate measure of the restoring architects talent is really defined by how close he can put his knowledge of the original architects design intent back in to play, without anyone noticing that he was there when he is done! A very tall order.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff Mingay

Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2002, 04:08:47 PM »
Thanks for all of the responses above! Great stuff.

I really appreciate all of the info. provided so far... but I'm too tired to digest it all right now.

I intend to print this thread, read thru it in the morning, then jump in the conversation with a few thoughts shortly thereafter!

Thanks again, everyone.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #41 on: March 18, 2002, 08:08:26 AM »
Jeff,

Don't think this was mentioned above: Wilmington (NC) Golf Club. A public Ross course beautifully restored by Ron Prichard and friends. See my comments in the Course Description section.

All The Best,

Doug
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Matt_Ward

Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #42 on: March 18, 2002, 01:41:26 PM »
Tom MacWood:

What was the "heavy handed approach" you refer to (March 17 / 9:35 AM response) specifically taken at Bethpage Black? Please specify what you mean in some sort of detail? Thanks.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #43 on: March 18, 2002, 03:21:33 PM »
Matt;

I have no idea what Tom MacWood thinks the heavy-handed approach taken at Bethpage Black was, and personally, although I'm from Long Island I can't remember the course that well. But you must admit the bunkering on the body of #18 is a bit much and might be described as "heavy handed"!

I mean, really, don't you think it looks a little like the teacher said to the class; "OK kids, now let's all get together and make sand traps"?

Looks to have been quite a large class too!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #44 on: March 18, 2002, 03:58:33 PM »
Matt
Heavy handed in the gutting of the old bunkers and rebuilding them in a very modern manner. I would have preferred they would worked slowly to sensatively excavate the original bunkers in order recapture their original look and configuration without digging them up starting all over. Much like an archelogoist slowly uncovers an old site - now unfortunately those Tillinghast details are lost for ever.  How would you contrast the current bunkers to those when the course was first contructed (as illustrated by old photos in RW's books)? The problem with Merion, Bethpage and Riviera is that they all designed by different architects but they all now have a similar look. Would you want your favorite old course reconstructed in this way?

It goes back to what Didron said:
"It is better to preserve than to repair, better to repair than to restore, better to restore than to reconstruct."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #45 on: March 18, 2002, 04:49:33 PM »
Tom MacWood

I've said this before on this board but I have to say it again.

Have you ever been to Bethpage?  

Have you seen it before Rees got there?

Do you know the sheer number of rounds played there and the clientele that walk through those bunkers like a herd of elephants?

Do you honestly think that those bunkers could have been maintained properly if they were restored as seen in the old pictures given the number of rounds played from dawn to dusk? The originals sure couldn't.

Bethpage is not Fenway GC nor is it Riviera or Merion.  The place was run down beyond description, probably in part because of neglect and in part because the style of bunkers could not withstand the constant huge volume of play.  If you were a frequent customer of the Black course you would be thanking Rees and the State and the USGA for giving you a superior golf course to play and enjoy.  

I am as stubborn as anyone when it comes to restoration work but I have to get off my high horse in this case and look at the results for the customers that use the course. You should get off your high horse in this case too! Especially since you've never seen the place or had the opportunity to use it!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #46 on: March 18, 2002, 05:50:52 PM »
Geoffrey
Interesting tact, where have I read that before. Are you trying to say that photgraphs do not portray the character of those bunkers? You do not see a distinct difference in style? I'm probably being unfair asking you to compare Bethpage of today with the Bethpage of the late 30's. Did you see the course in 1936? Did you see Yale in 1926 - perhaps those photos did not reflect the true essence of Yale's past and you should drop your objections. What's good for the goose....

Maybe I'm more of a stickler on restoring or preserving the architectural details that I believe gives a course or an architect its/his unique character - better known as high horse syndrom. To say we disagree that those bunkers reflect their original character is an understatement - but I respect you view none the less, I just think you are wrong. Or perhaps you look at the project more realistically and you are better able to rationalize the results, maybe due to your personal connection to the course, or maybe you have more technical expertise/know-how on bunker construction and maintenance than do I. I'm not an architect and don't know that much about technical issues - I'm only expressing my opinions on the very disappointing results. Based on you expert opinion was total recontruction of those bunkers the only way to go? Was it impossible to restore the raw sand flashed appearance of the original bunkers?
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GeoffreyC

Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #47 on: March 18, 2002, 06:06:15 PM »
Tom

Look at the cover of "The Course Beautiful".  That's the only good photo of the bunkers at the Black course I that I remember from all three of RW's Tillinghast books.  It's of the 5th hole and in spite of trying to make it look good, they simply DON"T.  The 5th hole bunkering looks much better today then that picture probably taken anywhere between 1960- 1995. If you have some old photos please post them and we can see if they might be as easy as the old bunker on #16 at Pasatiempo to maintain.

Yes I'm a realist in this case and that's why I stated that Bethpage is NOT Yale, Merion, Fenway or Riviera.  It's not a case of what's good for the goose. In addition, the work at Bethpage did not really change the difficulty or playability of the bunkers and the STRATEGIES of play were maintained.  At Yale, this certainly was not the case as bunkers were made as much as 5 feet shallower, slopes were softened in the name of maintenance and basic features (alps hill and bunker, entire greens and green slopes) were changed over the years. At Riviera, similar changes in the strategies were altered. So, even on that level, Bethpage is different from Yale or Riviera.

Also, these are totally different cases with different memberships and vastly different amounts of play. Had you spent countless sunrises waiting to play a gem of a course that is in absolutely horrible state of repair and maintenance and then spent 6 hours trying to get in 18 holes you might feel differently too. I'm fine with the idea that you are disappointed with the results sitting in Ohio but I kind of like going over there to play myself these days (if I can ever get a tee time).  It's like night and day.

Had you asked me to compare the bunker work and overall restoration work at Baltusrol, Quaker Ridge and Fenway I would certainly have a different perspective.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:03 PM by -1 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #48 on: March 18, 2002, 07:20:18 PM »
Geoffrey
I have not seen RW's most recent book, but #2 has numerous old photos of Bethpage (I wish I had a scanner). The original look and the evolved look are nothing like the rolled sod appearance of today. Is the rolled sod look the only maintainable bunker type? I have no idea, but I do find it odd that it is very similar to both the look of Riviera and Merion. Was it impossible or impractacle in your opinion to recreate the original look at Bethpage?

Yes I'm sitting (and not a horse) in Ohio (incidently Tillinghast is burried in our great state) but I could be in Iceland or Connecticut, I don't think my opinion would change.

Has there been steps taken to decrease the amount of play, do you see an increased respect for the course? Have green fees increased green fees (or will they), how about closures or limiting play. Do you think the US Open might have an effect how the public treats the course as compared to the early days?

Are you saying that appearance plays no part in a restoration, that the style of the original design and architect are not important? Is it your view that the current bunkers look the same, are as visually intimidating and carry the exact same strategic weight as the original bunkers? If someone is hired to restore a Tillinghast or Thomas or Flynn course I believe that it is important to preserve their individualistic character, not always recreate the look from day one but to at least preserve how their style has naturally evolved (there) over the years. It appears to me neither occured at Bethpage.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where are all the good restorations?
« Reply #49 on: March 18, 2002, 08:47:49 PM »
What about Doak's work at the Valley Club of Montecito?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson