[TEPaul]

If some of you guys who are commenting on some relatively specific characteristics of Bayside are using that aerial in Post #16 I might say you are seeing things you want to see and not seeing things you don't want to see.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TeP,

Assuming you are referring to me, how is that exactly?

I do see a definite (but not severe) rough around those fw.

I see (granted in one instance) more little contours in the rough right about the high school.

TMac,

Thanks for that construction photo. Can you or anyone tell me where the high school ended up in that photo so I can reference it better?

[Tom MacWood]

Why would I be misinterpreting Max Behr in his articles?

TEP
You're assigning credit to Behr and his debate with Crane for Mackenzie's later minimalist bunker pattern. My question is did Behr actually advocate minimalism in bunkering, and if that was the case wouldn't his designs reflect that? How many bunkers did Behr's most prominent courses have?  

[Neil_Crafter]

A couple more aerials.
 
Bayside from 1941



Bayside from 1954

[Tom MacWood]

Robert Trent Jones claimed he was given a personal tour of Bayside by Mackenzie. 

[Mark Bourgeois]

I have info on the birth, construction, sale, and demise of the course I will try to post this weekend.  Meanwhile, check this out from the May 6, 1944 Dunkirk Evening Observer:

Manager Walter Grego of the
Bayside golf links in nearby Flushing
ran short of help this year
and wasn't able to keep up the
fairways and greens. His staff of
grounds-keepers dwindled from a
dozen to three. In the crisis, about
25 regular players on this public
course volunteered their services.
Each contributes about five hours
per week. Even in the rain, last
Monday, 15 were out doing their
greenswork.

10x3x6 + 5x25 = 305 man-hours per week. With his normal staff complement, it was 10x12x6 = 720.

How do these two totals compare to public courses today and if the number of Bayside bunkers were "normalized" to, say, a typical Fazio course, what would the "standard" maintenance hours per week requirement be?

[TEPaul]

"TEP
You're assigning credit to Behr and his debate with Crane for Mackenzie's later minimalist bunker pattern."


Tom MacWood:

When or where on this thread did I say anything about assigning credit to Behr for Mackenzie's later minimalist bunker patterns on Bayside?

You should stop assigning things to people on here that they never remotely said or implied. I suppose you try to do that on here to see if you can get away with assigning some statement to someone and then claiming it's wrong to support some other point you're trying to make that probably has nothing to do with it at all.

[Neil_Crafter]

Tom
Tom Doak in the second reply to this thread described RTJ telling him about meeting Mac at Bayside. RTJ also wrote an introduction to the Grant Books reprint of Dr Mackenzie's Golf Architecture and he talks about the course and the meeting in there. If there is any interest I will scan the pages and post them here.

Mark B, look forward to anything you can post as I know you have a particular interest in this course.

[Joe Bausch]

Here is a follow-up article on Bayside, the day before the course opens.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom
Tom Doak in the second reply to this thread described RTJ telling him about meeting Mac at Bayside. RTJ also wrote an introduction to the Grant Books reprint of Dr Mackenzie's Golf Architecture and he talks about the course and the meeting in there. If there is any interest I will scan the pages and post them here.

Mark B, look forward to anything you can post as I know you have a particular interest in this course.

Neil
That is where I read it. If you could please do scan the intro.

[Bruce Katona]

When was the course plowed under for development?

[Neil_Crafter]

Joe
Another great article and thanks for finding and sharing it. Very interesting about the greens I thought.

Tom
Here is the RTJ intro to the Grant Books edition of Golf Architecture. He even manages to credit Mackenzie with North Shore!!

Bruce
I think it was the late 50s. Mark Bourgeois has more on the course's demise for housing.

[Sean_Tully]

Neil-

That is interesting that Jones Sr. gives AM credit for his work at North Shore in Illinois!

That course opened in 1924! So, unless he made some changes to the course prior to the US Open there in 1933 I have it as a Alison course. I am working with the Superintendent there and hope to have some info soon.

Tully

[Mike Cirba]

Did anyone else note the irony of RTJ Sr. complimenting Mackenzie on his sparse use of strategic bunkering that didn't dictate the proper play to the golfer, given Jones' own predisposition for pinching in both sides of his fairways and greens with bunkers?

[Neil_Crafter]

Sean
Yes, I thought North Shore was Alison and perhaps RTJ got mixed up as a result. Will be interesting to see if there was a later involvement by Mac as this is not the first occasion his name has been linked to North Shore.

Mike
Yes, some irony there, also as RTJ helped make Mac's old 16th at ANGC disappear.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Here's what I've got.

1887: property that is to become Bayside GC acquired by Cord-Meyer company.  (Charles Meyer will be the one who develops Bayside GC.)
Source: "$3,000,000 is Paid for Queens Tract," by Maurice Foley, NY Times, 25 March 1956, pR1

27 Feb 1931: Bayside is chartered as a NY State corporation: "Bayside Golf Corp., golf courses--Street & Adikes, Jamaica: 1,000 shares common"
Source: "New Incorporations," NY Times, 28 Feb 1931, p38

18 March 1931: Construction starts.
Source: "Modern Methods Speed the Completion of Golf Course on Farmland at Bayside," by Lincoln A. Werden, NY Times, 22 Apr 1931, p32

21 Apr 1931: Mackenzie on site: "...the course will be ready during July, Dr. Alister Mackenzie, the architect, said yesterday..."
Source: "Modern Methods Speed the Completion of Golf Course on Farmland at Bayside," by Lincoln A. Werden, NY Times, 22 Apr 1931, p32

25 Apr 1931: Construction finishes (planned as of 21 Apr)
Source: "Modern Methods Speed the Completion of Golf Course on Farmland at Bayside," by Lincoln A. Werden, NY Times, 22 Apr 1931, p32

9 May 1931: Report that William H. Griffith is in charge of building Bayside, reporting to Wendell Miller and Mackenzie.  Griffith came to project from Juniata Valley Colony Club where he was superintendent for three prior years.  "Mr. Griffith and his family came to the Juniata Valley Colony Club from Miami Beach, Florida, where he built the golf course for Glen Curtis, the man who built the first airplane.  He is now building the Bayside Course, Long Island, for Wendell Miller and Dr. Alister Mackenzie."
Source: "Golfers Miss Familiar Figure at Colony Club," Unbylined report, The Daily News, Huntingdon, PA, 9 May 1931, p2

Note:  Apparently Wendell Miller was not the day-to-day site guy.  In addition to finding Griffith, I have found a report of the construction of Palmetto GC in Aiken, South Carolina.  In that report an RL Brown was listed as the on-site guy working for Miller. Neil Crafter found info regarding St. Charles.  Together those supply a bare-bones outline of Miller's organization and how he operated.

I wonder if Juniata Valley Colony Club is a lead worth pursuing.  It was built in 1924 in Mount Union, Pennsylvania, apparently near Huntingdon, and at some point was purchased by the American Legion and now is called "Mount Union American Legion Country Club." No idea who designed it -- C&W have a "Juniata" but that's not the same course.

9 Apr 1950: Charles Garrison Meyer, the developer of Bayside through his company Cord-Meyer, dies of a heart attack at his daughter's house in Oyster Bay, Long Island, aged 70. He was a founding member of National Golf Club and developed most of Forest Hills (a very big deal!).
Source: "Charles G. Meyer, Civic Leader, Dies," Unbylined report, NY Times, 10 Apr 1950, p16

24 March 1956: Announcement that Bayside GC will be sold to Jack Parker for $3-million.  Parker planned to erect 600 houses on the property, at a total expected investment of $20-million.  Sale expected to close by September.
Source: "$3,000,000 is Paid for Queens Tract," by Maurice Foley, NY Times, 25 March 1956, pR1

3 Nov 1956: Housing construction begins.  Parker's company is named as the Nonajan Holding Corporation, of which Parker was president.  The sellers were: Charles G. Meyer Jr., Mrs. Margaret M. Grand, S. Willets Meyer, and G. Howland Meyer. Presumably Mrs. Grand is Meyer's daughter (the others were his sons) -- and she divorced and remarried between Meyer's death and the sale of Bayside.
Source: "Work is Started on Bayside Homes," Unbylined report, NY Times, 4 Nov 1956, p296

25 Nov 1956: Nine holes remain open and were to remain so through "sometime late next year."
Source: "Builders Cry 'Fore' as Bulldozers Drive Golfers Off Queens Links," Unbylined report, NY Times, 25 Nov 1956, p319.

The Meyer company lives to this day but sadly neither the company nor Meyer's heirs appear to have any materials left regarding Bayside.

Mark

[Tom MacWood]

Sean
Yes, I thought North Shore was Alison and perhaps RTJ got mixed up as a result. Will be interesting to see if there was a later involvement by Mac as this is not the first occasion his name has been linked to North Shore.

Mike
Yes, some irony there, also as RTJ helped make Mac's old 16th at ANGC disappear.

I'm 99% sure North Shore is Alison. I think the confusion comes from the firm Colt, Mackenzie & Alison being engaged in those early 20s in America, which included NS. I don't think there is any trace of AM coming into the States in those early years.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Neil-

That is interesting that Jones Sr. gives AM credit for his work at North Shore in Illinois!

That course opened in 1924! So, unless he made some changes to the course prior to the US Open there in 1933 I have it as a Alison course. I am working with the Superintendent there and hope to have some info soon.

Tully

Sean,

  I'm not certain how much this will help, but I recall in the case of Burning Tree (MD), which to my understanding was an Alison built by Toomey & Flynn Construction Company, the course was also attributed to Mackenzie.  I forget where I read this, or heard it-but I believe Mackenzie was a junior partner in Alison's golf course architecture practice.  The first time I was there, I was told it was Mackenzie, but learned later (it may have been here) that BTCC is an Alison (totally redone by Hills) and about the Mackenzie-Alison connection.  So, that attribution of NSCC to Mackenzie may be in the same vein.  But, it's only speculation on my part. 

[Neil_Crafter]

Mark B
Thanks for posting that timeline, sets things out very clearly.
Do you think Mac had anything to do with Juniata Valley, or just coincidence that the Miller foreman Griffith came from there?

Tom Mac
I think that is generally the source of confusion too. Colt mackenzie & Alison adverts that included this and other North American courses that were either the work of Colt or Alison. And there is no evidence Mac was in the US prior to January 1926.

Doug
Just to clear something up, Mackenzie was not a junior partner to Alison, and at the time of the partnership coming together in 1919 (it only lasted until early 1923) Mackenzie's design experience was I think somewhat greater than that of Alison. So I think these misattributions go back to the name of the partnership.

[Tom MacWood]

I've never heard of Juanita Valley Colony. I wonder if this was a private course for Curtis.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Neil, no I don't think the timing would work out, although who knows.  I've actually found three opening dates for it on the web: 1920, 1924 (see below) and 1927.  What I wonder is how Griffith hooked up with Miller.  Wonder if Miller worked on course construction in Philly area.

Tom M, was Curtis's club in Fla called Colony?  The course in PA is now the American Legion Country Club in Mount Union, PA.

From http://www.mountunionpa.org/sponsors/americanlgncntryclub.html:

American Legion Country Club

Golf at the Mount Union American Legion Country Club is second to none.  The 18-hole, 6521-yard, par-74 layout is a fairly straight golf course with a few doglegs and a lot of up-and-down from tees to greens.  The first nine holes travel around the perimeter of the course, with woods and out-of-bounds along the way.  The second nine holes wind their way around the interior of the course.  The greens are relatively small, extremely fast and have a wavy motion to challenge the most experienced golfer.

The club hosts several annual tournaments including a Two-Ball Invitational that attracts golfers from throughout the eastern United States.  The club has also played host to the State American Legion Tournament.

This mature course, built in 1924 as the Juniata Valley Colony Club, was later sold to the Simpson-Hunt Post of the American Legion.  An Olympic-size swimming pool, pro shop, locker rooms and putting green compliment the facility.  Golf cart rentals and greens fees are modest for a golf course of this size.  A spacious dining room is available for parties, reunions and receptions.

One supposes the American Legion keeps excellent records.  Perhaps someone would like to call them.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Re: American Legion

Records do exist there. A visit will be necessary. It's south of State College and about a 3.5 hour drive from the Philly area. Anyone want to pay a visit?


It's a par 74 with a par6 hole!!!


Mount Union is a borough in Huntingdon County, Pennsylvania, 45 miles (72 km) southeast of Altoona, on the Juniata River.

Can anyone get a google map of the course?

[Neil_Crafter]

We have found some more articles about Bayside (with some kind assistance from Mr Joe Bausch).
All from Brooklyn Daily Eagle.

This first one is from October 27 1931 says the course is playable but with flagsticks just stuck in the ground, no holes yet.



The second is from April 13 1933 and says that the course's formal opening would be tomorrow, April 14 1933. Presumably the course had been in use for some time by this point but not formally opened, given that it was nearly ready for play some 18 months earlier.



This is a very interesting article by Ralph Trost who wrote the other articles that Joe posted. He describes in some detail the undulations in the course, especially those in the green complexes.



And finally an article about the Long Island PGA Championship of 1938 held at Bayside, with an interesting description of Mackenzie's 17th hole. It seems a number of pro events were held at Bayside, with players of the calibre of Sarazen and Hogan competing.

[Mike Cirba]

All,

It appears that the American Legion GC in Mount Union, PA (fka Juniata Valley GC) was designed by Tom Bendelow, as the 1926 article below mentions;

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Mike,

What newspaper is the Juniata Valley article from?

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