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Paul_Turner

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6900 yds in 1905
« on: May 11, 2010, 08:02:00 AM »
Southerndown as designed by Willie Fernie, Bogey 88.  And reported that he initially aimed for 7100 yds. 

Any other examples of monster courses that early on?
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Tom MacWood

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Re: 6900 yds in 1905
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2010, 08:26:05 AM »
I think that might take the cake. I don't know the exact yardage but I believe Walton Heath was pretty long around the same time. Princes, which came a couple years later, was relatively long too.
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Jeff_Brauer

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Re: 6900 yds in 1905
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2010, 09:02:03 AM »
The Lasker course in Chicago, Mill Road Farm, while dating to 1926, was 7000 yds.
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Jamie Barber

Re: 6900 yds in 1905
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2010, 12:07:39 PM »
Quote from: Tom MacWood on May 11, 2010, 08:26:05 AM
Princes, which came a couple years later, was relatively long too.

I've got a cigarette card from 1936 which lists it as 6890 yds, 10 yds longer than our current medal course! I think the PAR then may have been higher.
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RSLivingston_III

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Re: 6900 yds in 1905
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2010, 01:59:25 PM »
Fresh Meadow CC was a 6865 par70 Tillinghast when Sarazan was pro there. It was in Queens and is now a No-Longer-Exists.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2010, 02:53:44 PM by Ralph_Livingston »
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Alex Miller

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Re: 6900 yds in 1905
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2010, 02:12:37 PM »
How long was Oakmont when it opened?
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RSLivingston_III

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Re: 6900 yds in 1905
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2010, 02:31:01 PM »
Quote from: Kelly Blake Moran on May 11, 2010, 01:20:51 PM
For context, in the 1920’s Robert Hunter said most of the long hitters would have a hard time carrying a hazard from the tee at 180 yards. I’m not a long hitter and could probably do that with my 4 iron today.



Do you have a page number for that line? I assume it is supposed to be from "The Links". Are you sure that wasn't about the average player?
Most of that book is devoted to the problems with length.
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RSLivingston_III

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Re: 6900 yds in 1905
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2010, 02:59:28 PM »
 
Thanks Kelly, I will have to save that for my reference material. It still doesn't seem to jive with what he said in other parts of the book.

As for the old Fresh Meadow, layout with yardages can be seen in "The Course Beautiful" pg,60.
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Phil_the_Author

Re: 6900 yds in 1905 New
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2010, 02:34:24 AM »
The Colonial Golf Club that Tilly designed in Atlanta that opened in 1929 and then went under immediately after the market crashed was more than 7,000 yards and had NO rough...
« Last Edit: May 12, 2010, 11:53:26 AM by Philip Young »
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Sean_A

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Re: 6900 yds in 1905
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2010, 03:39:55 AM »
Paul


I have been looking and I can't find anything of that length in 1905.  The others are mentioning courses that came much later when it was clear that technology was going to push extra yardage.  Do you know the reason Fernie wanted such a long course?  Did that course include a few Bogey 6s?  I think Fowler, Colt and maybe Park Jr had a spin round SDown.  How much shorter did the course become due to their efforts?  Did Steel lengthen the course at all?

Ciao

« Last Edit: May 12, 2010, 04:00:09 AM by Sean Arble »
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Mike_Clayton

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Re: 6900 yds in 1905
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2010, 05:41:22 AM »
Kingston Heath was a bogey 82 in the early 1930s and 6830 yards - give or take twenty of thirty yards.
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Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 6900 yds in 1905
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2010, 05:55:51 AM »
Off-topic I'm afraid but it's to do with 6,900 yards: Growing up watching The Open, it was always noticeable that every course on the rota was around the 6,900 yard mark... Carnoustie (which was off the rota from '75 to '99) was supposed to be the beast at 7,200 yards (although I'm not sure it was really played that far back in 1975)...

In fact, I think the Open courses sat at about 6,900 yards for 40 or more years... It would probably make a good analysis of equipment changes to track a trend of Open championship lengths... There will be a few step jumps at all the expected places...

I'm not sure what they played from in 1905 though...
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Sean_A

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Re: 6900 yds in 1905
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2010, 06:10:43 AM »
Quote from: Ally Mcintosh on May 12, 2010, 05:55:51 AM
Off-topic I'm afraid but it's to do with 6,900 yards: Growing up watching The Open, it was always noticeable that every course on the rota was around the 6,900 yard mark... Carnoustie (which was off the rota from '75 to '99) was supposed to be the beast at 7,200 yards (although I'm not sure it was really played that far back in 1975)...

In fact, I think the Open courses sat at about 6,900 yards for 40 or more years... It would probably make a good analysis of equipment changes to track a trend of Open championship lengths... There will be a few step jumps at all the expected places...

I'm not sure what they played from in 1905 though...

Ally

The 1905 Open was held at TOC; total length 6533.  

The length of TOC for Opens went up 91 yards from 1939 thru 1995; 6842/6933 for an average of 6927. Interestingly, the '55 Open played at 6996 and never played longer until 2000.

Info courtesy of The Evolution of TOC by S MacPherson (pgs 51-52) - one of the GREATEST golf books out there.

Ciao
« Last Edit: May 12, 2010, 07:06:13 AM by Sean Arble »
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Tom MacWood

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Re: 6900 yds in 1905
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2010, 06:51:32 AM »
I think the magic number was 6000 yards in the early 1900s. CBM Ideal course in 1907 was 6014 yds. Walton Heath was a little over 6300 yards in 1905 and a 1905 article on John Low's changes to St. Andrews put its length at 6333. Princes was listed as 6500 in 1911, and I believe that was its approximate length when it opened in 1905.
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Sean_A

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Re: 6900 yds in 1905
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2010, 07:09:41 AM »
One thing I hadn't realized is that TOC was reckoned to be the longest of championship courses even before the course went to 6533 for the '05 Open.  For some reason, at least for the last 3 or 4 decades, I thought TOC was one of the shorter Open venues.  Perhaps this isn't the case afterall.

Also interesting is that around the time of the turn of the century (perhaps just shy of) the idea of Championship Tees came into being.  It isn't clear if Sandwich or TOC was the first to introduce these special tees.

Ciao
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Ally Mcintosh

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Re: 6900 yds in 1905
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2010, 07:27:52 AM »
Quote from: Sean Arble on May 12, 2010, 07:09:41 AM
One thing I hadn't realized is that TOC was reckoned to be the longest of championship courses even before the course went to 6533 for the '05 Open.  For some reason, at least for the last 3 or 4 decades, I thought TOC was one of the shorter Open venues.  Perhaps this isn't the case afterall.


Sean, I just recall almost all the venues being about 6,900 yards from when I started watching in the late 70's (maybe I am simplifying my memory)... I think Troon was one of the first to go longer... I certainly never had the impression that St.Andrews was one of the shorter... It would be great if there was any way of finding out the championship length for each year...
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Sean_A

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Re: 6900 yds in 1905
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2010, 07:41:17 AM »
Quote from: Ally Mcintosh on May 12, 2010, 07:27:52 AM
Quote from: Sean Arble on May 12, 2010, 07:09:41 AM
One thing I hadn't realized is that TOC was reckoned to be the longest of championship courses even before the course went to 6533 for the '05 Open.  For some reason, at least for the last 3 or 4 decades, I thought TOC was one of the shorter Open venues.  Perhaps this isn't the case afterall.


Sean, I just recall almost all the venues being about 6,900 yards from when I started watching in the late 70's (maybe I am simplifying my memory)... I think Troon was one of the first to go longer... I certainly never had the impression that St.Andrews was one of the shorter... It would be great if there was any way of finding out the championship length for each year...

Ally

I suspect your guess isn't far off - TOC fits it anyway.  My memory of 7000 yards being the "new target" seems to start around 1985-1990.  Now of course we are looking at 7400/7500 yards. 

Yes, my memory suggests that Troon was one of the longest championship courses, but I was thinking that most Open courses didn't join the 7000 yard club until ten years or so after it was being done in the States - say early to mid 90s or whenever the individual clubs hosted the Open in that period and likely a bit later. 

Ciao
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Tony_Muldoon

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Re: 6900 yds in 1905 New
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2010, 07:48:45 AM »


This is from Scott's book and as you can see there is a spike in 1905, caused by fear of the new bounding billly would mean.

« Last Edit: May 12, 2010, 07:52:20 AM by Tony_Muldoon »
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