Is this a good golf hole?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Seminole is one of those places where the greens are so fast, there would be a real advantage, even today, in hiting it near the left edge of the fw.
Its a decent hole other than IMHO, the forced carry is unnecessay and makes it a bad hole.  That is not really a challenge that is necessary for good golf, and it hurts so many players, esp if you NEED downwind just to carry the water, and esp considering the probable number of senior members.

Tsk Tsk Donald Ross! (that said, you could google a couple of my holes where wetlands forced me into such forced carries).   

[Adam Clayman]

Mac - This is a good golf hole. It rewards good shots and penalizes bad shots. The green is more elevated than it looks and requires a precision shot to hold the wicked green. The hazards are doing what they are intended to do, which is make you and other golfers think and adjust their strategy. It's also good because the wind is tricky. I think it's a classic Seminole hole: it lulls you into thinking it's not that hard then hits you over the head if you make a mistake. John

John, Bad shots need further penalty?

I'm with Shivas and would add the zero plane of the water would be much better presented as a riparian.

[Ben Sims]

I know what hole this is and, no, I've never played it.

Nevertheless, you asked for an opinion, and to me it looks like a hole from the Wilmette muni after an earthquake moved the green up 20 feet.

I don't like the look of it at all.  I don't like the planted trees left.  I don't like the watery look off the tee.  The cart part is hideous.   And I don't like the bunker up the gut.  Basically, unless this green is a clone of #1 or 6 at NGLA, I really don't see any redeeming factors.  There's nothing strategic here at all that I can see....

It looks like the definition of bomb and gouge to me.  Perhaps you have to hit it straight off the tee....so what?...that's required at the Jans....

Sorry, just one man's opinion....  

+3.  

This bring me to an interesting question.  We here at GCA.com--from time to time--feel the need to post a hole from a very exclusive or well known course without divulging that course's name to see what folks will say.  What it invariably sprials down into is an abyss of sycophantic speech--due mostly in part to the exclusivity of that course--about what is a golf hole of not much merit.  I honestly think a complete rookie could probably design this hole without much effort.  Pond, uphill fairway lined with bunkers.  Center line hazard for only the top 1% of drivers.  The only saving grace could be the green complex.  If it's as good as folks say, the hole goes from mundane to merely good.  

Also, you would think a hole of this pedigree and a club of this stature could figure out what to do with that cart path.

[Ben Sims]

Seminole is one of those places where the greens are so fast, there would be a real advantage, even today, in hiting it near the left edge of the fw.
Its a decent hole other than IMHO, the forced carry is unnecessay and makes it a bad hole.  That is not really a challenge that is necessary for good golf, and it hurts so many players, esp if you NEED downwind just to carry the water, and esp considering the probable number of senior members.

Tsk Tsk Donald Ross! (that said, you could google a couple of my holes where wetlands forced me into such forced carries).   

Jeff,

The best hole of yours I've ever played--the 16th at Wildhorse--requires a 180 yard carry from the tips over wetlands.

[JESII]

Re: the water, let's not forget the purpose of these ponds on the course...without them, there is no Seminole.

Re: the carry...Mac used the yardages from the tips. Google Earth measures the carry over the left side at 100 yards from about 5 yards back of the front cut so there is some elasticity...not perfect, but not too bad.

Re: the value of a shorter left side carry...it should be synonymous with also enabling the player that needs that shorter distance carry to also bump it into the green. The approach being steeply uphill bermuda grass would hardly enable a player like Mac to bounce in his 8 iron if he wanted to...at least not without really manipulating it.

For what it's worth, there is a real distinct advantage to just about every hole location, for a player like Mac, to approach from the left corner of the fairway but all of the signals/angles/suggestions push your eye to the right so you've got to pay attention every time.

[JESII]

I suppose they could build a grass covered tunnel for the cart path...

[John Sabino]

Adam - it doesn't need to be overly penal for sure. My experience is that what separates courses like Seminole from others is that there is a clear distinction between a good and bad shot. I think a course where there is a very easy recovery from bad shots isn't as much of a challenge (or fun) than one where there is a clearer penalty. Having said that, I'm not in favor of six inch rough that you can't get out of, that is overly penal. Seminole is not like that, it's a lot more subtle. John

[Jordan Wall]

Why the need for the right hand fairway bunker, just past the water?

Basing a golf hole off pictures isn't exactly the best way to go about evaluating a hole or course, but then again not many people have played Seminole, including me, so why not.

At first, I didn't get the hole at all. But the overhead shots made it pretty clear that the centerline bunker was meant to challenge shots being run up as opposed to the tee shot.  As such, it also provides visual deception from the tee, because using only the photo Mac took, I would have guess it was in play off the tee.

The left fairways traps seem to guard the angle.

The right trap just doesn't seem to have a need to be there, imo.

I think this would be a hole that grows on me.  It already has in fact, over my initial opinion.

It would be interesting to see a shot of the green and see how the contours accept or reject run up shots.

Mackenzie said that great holes and courses will always be talked and debated about most.  Well, ...

Cheers,
Jordan

[Jim Sweeney]

It's a fine hole, not my favorite. I agree with those who are overwhelmed visually by the bunkering; take out either the flanking bunkers in the landing area or the centerline bunker, which seems unnecessary. Also , imagine no trees lining the fairway- a much more inviting panorama! Actually, without the trees the bunkers might make more sense- visually, at least.

No problem with the carry over the pond- wouldn't want it as a steady diet, but once in a while is just fine. How would your options change if you were playing a persimmon driver?

[Sean_A]

Mackenzie said that great holes and courses will always be talked and debated about most.  Well, ...

Cheers,
Jordan

...well, Dr Mac wasn't infallible, although I am understood to believe Dr Mac thought he was.

Lets face it folks, the hole isn't anything special and so doesn't warrant much discussion. I want to know more about the special holes - what are they and why?

Ciao   

[Eric Smith]

The daddy Mac!

BTW, that may be the best, tightest looking bermuda fwy turf I've ever seen in a picture.  Wow.

[Anthony Gray]

The daddy Mac!

BTW, that may be the best, tightest looking bermuda fwy turf I've ever seen in a picture.  Wow.

  Can you tell it was a shotgun and we started on the 14th by this picture?

   Anthony

[Kirk Gill]

The bunkering is visually overwhelming - and I'm sure it creates an amazing, puckered feeling on the tee when combined with the water. I'm not a good player, and I still think I'd be able to play that hole, if not from the back tees. My only issue, visually, is the straight line of sand on the left. Combined with the tee box shape and the mowing pattern on the tee, it's a lot of straight lines. Just an observation.

[Jobst von Steinsdorff]

1. I belong to the group thinking this hole is spoiled by the forced carry and it's specific setup. What makes it worse is the shape of the pond, meaning that right-handed slicers (i.e. the majority of weak players) off the tee increase their chances to end up in the water significantly, even if they were able to carry it with a good shot. Nothing against a slice being punished, but unavoidably sinking the ball in an pond, from which is no recovery and the distance is lost is a bit harsh. Especially if you're risking to see that scenario several times before you manage to get a ball over .

Well, you could set up a conveniently located drop zone (I don't know whether that's available here), anyway forcing weak golfer's to hit one into the water and have them play from someplace completely else is not really what this game is all about (maybe save for courses which finance their maintenance out of lakeball sales).

Nothing against a forced carry when there is an easy alternative available, which I don't think here is. While you could take the "ultimate MacKenzie approach" to put your ball along the left side of the pond, a - say - 38 on your scorecard maybe a little too much disadavantage just for avoiding that carry. And no reasonable layup otion seems to be available here.

2. I read voices saying a few forced carries of that sort on a course would be okay. I believe there are three kinds of players: The first is not really thrilled, because it's a cakewalk for them, a second for which it is definitley thrilling because it is something they can do but are not assured to achieve (count me in) and a third for which the hole is virtually implayable. I may be missing something here: But the latter will be frustrated by the course even if you have one or two of this kind. So I would say, build in the forced carry if you at least provide a sensible alternative route or where some relief after a failed shot is available (as e.g. from a Pine Valley waste area) - the pond is just too severe.

3. I also wonder what that middle bunker is all about. I don't think preventing low approach shots can be the real reason. Who in the world would want to play a low approach uphill in this setting? Anyone able to carry the pond should prefer to pitch it and if you absolutely want to prevent low approach shots just leaving long grass there should do the work.

[JESII]

How does one get across the burn on #1 at TOC? The backup must be brutal...

[Patrick_Mucci]

ATTENTION:

This hole isn't a good hole.

It's a GREAT hole.

All of the MORONS critical of the hole don't have a clue when it comes evaluating the merits of this hole.

Oh, I forgot, those diminishing the value of this hole have NEVER played this hole.

I hadn't been aware of this thread until a member of NGLA, whom I played with today, informed me of the thread and the critical comments as we stood on the 17th tee.  We did enjoy a good laugh as we discussed the absurdity of the critique by those totally unfamiliar with how the hole plays.

As Matt Ward correctly stated, you DON'T  judge a meal by how photogenic it is, but by how it tastes..
Judging this hole on the basis of photos is an exercise in stupidity.

This hole is unique in that it takes advantage of an unusual feature, a huge elevation change.
And, the hole has multiple personalities and challenges, depending upon wind direction and velocity, not to mention the significance of the hole location and the substantive impact of firm and fast conditions.

This is great hole.

The body of water is an integral part of the low central drainage system and is used on about 8 holes quite effectively.  (# 2, 7, 9, 10, 11, 12, 14, 15.

# 11 can be a difficult hole irrespective of how far one drives the ball.
While generous off the tee, the elevated, well guarded, angled, sloped green presents a unique and difficult challenge.
A par on this hole is a very good score.

The routing of this course is pure genius for a number of reasons, one being the tactical balance derived from all 18 holes, irrespective of the direction of the wind, and, the brilliant use of the two parallel dunes that run north-south through the margins of the property.

Those critical of this hole shouldn't consider a career in GCA.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

I was thinking of replying a second time to reiterate my first post but decided against it. I knew it simply wouldn't be needed because Mucci would be arriving sooner than later to set everyone straight. I am happy I was right. 

[Ben Sims]

Mr. Mucci,

Relax.  No one is saying that Seminole sucks.  No one is saying the hole sucks.  It's just not very complicated or worthy of discussion, in my opinion.  Maybe I'm just supremely gifted, but I have RARELY been totally clueless in my initial observations about a hole from pictures and then seen the hole and said, "Oh!, I was  a MORON"  Despite what you say, I still feel that a picture can do a hole justice form time to time.  

There is something very homely and simple about this hole.  You know it and I know it.  If you still consider great, then I applaud your ability to see past what I consider it's flaws.  

--BTW, I'm glad you guys had a laugh at us cretans speaking about Seminole as you played The National.  Sorry you have to slum it up with the unwashed --

[Kenny Baer]

I was thinking of replying a second time to reiterate my first post but decided against it. I knew it simply wouldn't be needed because Mucci would be arriving sooner than later to set everyone straight. I am happy I was right.  

Mr Mucci,
From the picture it looks like the force carry is rather insignificant; I guess if the tee is all the way back, wind against you, and you are playing the tips and hit a push it could be an issue, but then again if that is where you are playing from then a drive of that distance shouldn't be a concern.  How far is the carry from the regular men's tee?
I have been checking this thread over and over waiting for your response; I knew you would come along soon enough.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ben Sims,

The NGLA member and I weren't playing NGLA.

You said, "There is something very homely and simple about this hole."

NOTHING could be further from the truth.

There's NOTHING "very homely and simple about this hole"

It's far more complex than it appears in the photo, but then again, you wouldn't know that unless you've played the hole a few times.

One also has to examine the hole in the context of its position in the order of play/routing.
The use of the dune, getting from the lowest point on the golf course to just about the highest, and to the 12th tee is quite creative.

It's a wonderful hole in appearance, complexity, play and challenge.

Kenny Baer,

I've seen many a good player push/slice their tee shot into the water.
I've seen many a good player mishit their drive into the water.
The forced carry isn't insignificant, but, it's not daunting either, unless the wind is in your face.

The approach shot is spectacular, requiring another forced carry where the margins for error can be very slim.
And, just because one hits the green, doesn't mean that par is assured.
It's a difficult green to hit, especially in relation to the hole location and leaving yourself an uphill, fairly straight putt.
Go long and it's not unusual to see recoveries hit back into the front bunkers.

Approaches cut, or mishit often come up short or are pushed into the deep right side bunkers.

This is a wonderful hole despite what the MORONS and CRETINS think