National Golf Links of America (revised)

[Chip Gaskins]

National Golf Links as an inspiration to Old Macdonald

Revised...

With all the talk about Old Macdonald I thought it would be enlightening to compare and contrast it with Charles Blair Macdonald’s masterpiece, National Golf Links of America.

A couple of days ago I played National and took a few pictures.  As I was playing National some friends of mine from the Western Golf Association and Evan Scholar program were out previewing Old Macdonald and were text messaging me pictures from there including loads of praise as they tried to describe it.

I am sure the team that designed and build Old Macdonald drew inspiration from the dozen or so Macdonald original courses and not just National.  And I am sure there are some Macdonald courses that are potentially better in places than National, Piping Rock for instance, but as a whole I think most say that National Golf Links is the place to begin for inspiration on all things Macdonald.

I know a lot of folks on here have played both National and Old Macdonald (or at least some of it) so I thought this would be a fun exercise to see where the inspiration may have come from at National and what the outcome ended up looking like at Old Mac.

Anyway, I took this opportunity to put a thread up that would potentially allow all those involved with the building of Old Macdonald that are contributors (Doak, Urbina, Klein, Bahto, etc) on this site to chime in and point out some of the features or strategies they tried to emulate or at least inspired them at Old Macdonald.

I will start with the first couple of questions.  

1) How does the Short Hole at Old Macdonald compare to National?  Length, internal contours, sand hazards, etc

2) Does the Redan have the adjacent landing pad like at National or is more like the later Redans at St Louis or Creek Club where the bounce in pad feels just like part of the green a little higher mowing height.








Hole #1
Probably my favorite single green in the world!


Hole #2


Hole #3
Alps


Blind Approach


Alps Green


Hole #4
Redan


From up on the right hand side of the bounce in approach


Hole #5




Hole #6
Short


Pat Mucci is correct, this is one of the most fun greens in all of golf


Hole #7
St Andrews (Road)






Hole #8
Bottle (my favorite on the course)




Hole #9
Long


Hole #10






Hole #11
Double Plateau




Hole #12




Hole #13
Eden (and like most Eden’s I can’t see I say all that much resemblance)




Hole #14
Cape


Hole #15




Hole #16
Punchbowl




Hole #17



Hole #18

[Ally Mcintosh]

Wow!

I just realise that is the first time I've seen a proper photo tour of NGLA and it just looks like everything I hoped... amazing stuff

I think it and Shinnecock are the two courses I most want to see in The States...

Thanks a mill...

[Tom_Doak]

Chip:

I would prefer NOT to answer a million questions about every single hole at Old Macdonald, and especially not before the course even opens.  I don't want to be accused of hyping the course, and I don't want to take the fun out of discovery and comparison for those who go out to play it.

I will answer your two questions for now, but then won't come back for more.

Our Short hole green is at least twice as large as the one at National, because we were concerned that the ever-present right to left crosswind would make a smaller green an impossible target for most people.  The green is notably deeper and banked from back to front, but it's imperative to hit the ball in the same portion of the green as the hole in order to avoid a three-putt or even a four-putt.  The hole is generally played at 125 yards (the same length), although there is a back tee at about 150.

Our Redan is probably the hole that's most divergent from Macdonald's various versions.  There ISN'T really a landing pad at green height or just above, as you describe for National's Redan, and the front left bunker is more to the back left of the green, with a short-grass slope all along the left front of the green feeding the ball in that direction.  Our green is very long but unusually skinny and hard to hold ... it's intended for a running shot up the slope, and I honestly don't know if any other approach will work very well ... for sure, I'll sit out there for a long time on Opening Day to watch how the ball reacts.  Because the hole is downwind, there is a long back tee at about 235 yards, but the middle tee is at 190 right on with the real one.

Overall, I think the course is very much inspired by National, but also by the links models which inspired National.  I think most of the holes look very different in one sense or another.  But I think you'll be able to tell where we got our ideas for the Alps hole.

[Carl Nichols]

Stunning pics.  Thanks.

[Ben Stephens]

Chip


Great pics taken on a fabulous day!

Its a dreamof mine to play this unique and special golf course.

The course looks awesome in terms of conditioning - but rather have it look more natural (than manicured) like Old Macdonald.


Cheers
Ben
  

[Philippe Binette]

I see it more as an inspiration for TPC Sawgrass

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chip,

Great photo essay.

If I could only play a par 3, par 4 and par 5 from the same course, for the rest of my life, # 6, # 8 and # 18 at NGLA would be my choice.

You can play them over and over and over and over again and never tire of them.

And, they're made even better when the direction and/or the velocity of the wind changes.

# 1 is also one of my favorite holes in golf and probably heads the list amongst starting holes.

What's so interesting about NGLA is the substantial and dramatic impact on play brought about by different hole locations.
 
Obviously # 1 has an abundance of them.
# 2 changes its personality when the hole is back against the drop off.
# 3 changes dramatically when the hole is far right..

I could go on and on and on.

But, I'm pressed for time so I can't.

But, I will probably use your photo essay when I continue with the "enchanted journey" thread.

Thanks for the photo tour, it makes me want to return to NGLA.
There's simply nothing like it.

[Richard Hetzel]

Chip,

Those a great pics of an even greater golf course. Wow. Just out of curiosity, does it play a FAST and FIRM as it looks?

[Mike Demetriou]

To borrow from Mr. Colton, does anyone ever get tired of another photo spread of NGLA?   No.

Just an amazing course, and the quality of the photos is excellent as well. 

[Chip Gaskins]

Tom-

Fair enough.  Thanks for the insight you did give on Short and Redan.  I can't wait to see Old Macdonald and understand your caution.  From everything I have heard it is one of the most impressive courses built in half a century, if not more...maybe after it officially opens we can drag you and Urbina, Klein, Bahto, etc into a discussion.

Pat-

I totally agree on #1 and #8 at NGLA, but I have to admit #18 is somewhat pedestrian.  Don't get me wrong the views are amazing, but the long slug of an uphill par 5 18th is not the best.  Maybe as Macdonald planned as #9 it would have worked better but as #18 it is a tough slog of a finish.  With that said, #1 green is one of the best in all of golf and #8 is top 3-4 holes in the world.

I also have to admit, there are places at NGLA that I still confess not to "get"...maybe I am a slow learner...call it my "Merion Syndrome"!  I would love for you, or anyone, to enlighten me on some of the holes I still scratch my head on.

Mike-

I borrowed my wife's, yet to be given, Mother's Day present which was a Nikon digital SLR camera :-)  They are pretty amazing compared to my old wallet sized camera.  Great pictures of Maidstone, Bethpage, Frairs Head, and Sebonack to post later...

Chip

[Brian Brady]

...I'm headed to the National for the first time on Friday, this just got my blood pumping.  I've never been so excited to see a course in all of my life.

Thanks for the photo tour, I'll post some from my visit too.

It's amazing to think about the amount of work (the studying, the planning, and the detail) that went into NGLA.

[Mike Sweeney]

I totally agree on #1 and #8 at NGLA, but I have to admit #18 is somewhat pedestrian.  Don't get me wrong the views are amazing, but the long slug of an uphill par 5 18th is not the best.  Maybe as Macdonald planned as #9 it would have worked better but as #18 it is a tough slog of a finish.  

From the GCA review of National:

"18th hole, 510 yards, Home; Like the Home hole at St. Andrews, this one is not the hardest hole on the course but it is capable of producing swings of fortune. According to Bernard Darwin, ‘Finally, there is, I think, the finest eighteenth hole in all the world. The tee shot must be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers ’slice’ in the player’s ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook. Then if the drive had been far and sure there is a grand slashing second to be hit over a big cross-bunker, and at last comes a little running shot at once pretty and terrifying on to a green of subtle undulations backed by a sheer drop into speakable perdition.’ And with technology having brought the green in reach in two for some (though thatcan involve throwing a ball out over the cliff and letting the wind bring it back), any score from a 3 to an 8 awaits, which is why it is such a favorite Home hole."

I think I will go with Darwin over Gaskins on this one!

[Chip Gaskins]

You should always go with Darwin over Gaskins

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chip,

Those a great pics of an even greater golf course. Wow. Just out of curiosity, does it play a FAST and FIRM as it looks?

Yes, as long as Mother Nature co-operates

[Mike Demetriou]

Chip, I would have PM'd this, but I suspect some want to hear your answer: Do you find it cumbersome, or too distracting, to take photos with a DSLR? I am worried that if I bring an SLR, I'd miss out on the game itself. Can you do both? I gather you've played NGLA many times, so it wouldn't be a sacrifice for you - but on my first round at a dream course like NGLA, I'd be freaked out to play and shoot.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chip,

At less than 500 yards I don't see # 18 as an uphill slog.

In medal and/or match play, # 18 is a wonderful hole.
Especially with differing wind conditions.

Certainly it's not overpoweringly long, but, there's so much danger amidst the wide fairway.

And, the approach to that green, be it from 200 to 15 yards, can be frightening.

Recovery can also be intimidating as well.

While I chose # 8 as my par 4, # 3 is probably a close second, with # 15 next.

I'd be happy to discuss any of the holes.

Which places at NGLA don't you get ?

There's an incredible amount of subtlety that becomes all too apparent when you make a mistake.
Repeat play helps reveal more and more about the course.

It is truely unique .... and fun.

[Ben Sims]

Mr. Mucci,

Looking at my NGLA scorecard--my prize possession that I will one day get to USE!--I see #8 Bottle at 400yds from the Championship tees and 385 yds from the Regular tees.  My question involves technology.  Do the fairway bunkers still present a salient challenge to getting the  preferred line in the age of common 270-300 yd drives? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mr. Mucci,

Looking at my NGLA scorecard--my prize possession that I will one day get to USE!--I see #8 Bottle at 400yds from the Championship tees and 385 yds from the Regular tees.  My question involves technology.  Do the fairway bunkers still present a salient challenge to getting the  preferred line in the age of common 270-300 yd drives?  

Ben,

# 8 is 424+ from the Red tees, and about 404 from the Green tees.  
It's not uncommon for the wind to be in your face, and/or, the air can be "heavy" with the course so close to two bodies of water.
The air/wind has helped deter the advances in distance to a degree.


There's a "Principal's Nose" like bunker complex that's 90-110 yards from the green.  315-335 from the Red Tee.
That complex should be avoided at all costs.

That gives the golfer attempting to fly the row of centerline bunkers, effectively less than 38 yards in which to have his drive that's cleared the centerline row of bunkers, to come to rest before entering the PN complex.

For the great bulk of the golfing world, the lengthening of # 8 has retained the architectural and playing significance of the centerline bunker complex.

Unfortunately, unless # 7 is lengthened, the "Hotel" Bunker will remain obsoleted by increased distance off the tee.
Changing par doesn't solve the problem, which is, that golfers no longer interface with a critical hazard that affects the lines of play and club selection.

[Ben Sims]

Mr. Mucci,

Aside from your color choice on the font--I very nearly lost my pilot qual--thanks for your reply.  My card must be old.  It shows 400 from the red and 385 from the green.  I have a love affair with the bottle hole, and the challenge it provides.  It dares the golfer without the need for water or overuse of sand.  IMO, it's the ultimate tester with the biggest margin for error for the hack. 

[Ash Towe]

Chip,

I cannot add to the discussion here-unfortunately.

However thanks for sharing these pictures, there is so much to look at and enjoy.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ben,

I've corrected the color.

# 8 is one of my all time favorites as well.

One of the really, really, really neat features on # 8 is when they locate the hole on the right side of the green, mid to back.
Optically, from the DZ it looks like the flag is suspended in space, to the right of the green.
It's one of the most intimidating approaches I've ever seen.  It's truely frightening.

Any hole location, remotely close to the perimeter of the green presents a unique set of problems, optically and tactically and in terms of margins of error.

The hole has far more to offer than the centerline bunker complex that challenges the golfer off the tee.

It's a great hole on the drive, approach, recovery and putts.

[Ben Sims]

Ben,

I've corrected the color.

# 8 is one of my all time favorites as well.

One of the really, really, really neat features on # 8 is when they locate the hole on the right side of the green, mid to back.
Optically, from the DZ it looks like the flag is suspended in space, to the right of the green.
It's one of the most intimidating approaches I've ever seen.  It's truely frightening.

Any hole location, remotely close to the perimeter of the green presents a unique set of problems, optically and tactically and in terms of margins of error.

The hole has far more to offer than the centerline bunker complex that challenges the golfer off the tee.

It's a great hole on the drive, approach, recovery and putts.

I get the feeling that #8 at The National is like hearing Eddie Van Halen's warmup song "Eruption" for the first time.  Mouth agape and stunned at the look, feel, and idea behind it all.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I forget. What is the date of the Golf Club Atlas outing at NGLA this year?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ben,

In addition to the enjoyment one gets in playing the hole, like so many at NGLA, there's a second benefit, that of watching the group behind you play the hole.

You get to see # 1, # 4, # 5, # 6, # 7, # 8, # 9, # 10, # 11, # 13, # 14, # 15, # 16 and # 17 due to the proximity of the next tee to the previous green.

There's a unique pleasure in seeing a great shot hit into those greens along with the sympathetic feeling you get when you see an errant or marginal shot suffer a dire fate.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Bearing in mind my post No.2 on this thread which stated that this is just about the No.1 course I want to see, am I allowed to offer a negative opinion?...

I really don't like the cross-hatching on the approaches... Far too "busy"...