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Chip Gaskins

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Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #50 on: May 10, 2010, 10:42:46 PM »
"I can't imagine anyone carrying over the Principles Nose.  Have you ever heard of that?"


Chip:

Well, first of all to carry the Principles Nose bunker seems to me a bit odd because there is a ton of fairway room to the left of it which is actually a tad higher.

But yes, I have heard of someone carrying that Priniciples Nose bunker. The former super of NGLA, Karl Olsen told me he did it once!

But you know the way it is. There is always a bigger fish story out there somewhere----eg somebody on here told me they actually saw Tiger Woods carry the cross bunkers on #9 with a 1 iron.

These golf courses and their architectural features were not designed to deal with shit like that nor should they ever be, in my humble and very short opinion! 


Tom-

We were talking in the pro shop with everyone after the round and they said Mickelson carried the first green by 20 yards with a 80% driver, wow!!!!!  Two in my group hit it on the front apron, but to carry it by 20 yards is just crazy!

Chip

Alex Miller

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Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #51 on: May 10, 2010, 10:44:41 PM »


We were talking in the pro shop with everyone after the round and they said Mickelson carried the first green by 20 yards with a 80% driver, wow!!!!!  Two in my group hit it on the front apron, but to carry it by 20 yards is just crazy!

Chip

Wow, they say he is possibly the longest guy on tour, but that's insane!

Great photos! Thanks for the tour.

Bill_McBride

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Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #52 on: May 10, 2010, 10:50:11 PM »
Chip, the intriguing aspect of #17 is the decision that must be made on the tee.  If the wind is up, or your drives just aren't long enough, it's a fearsome carry to the left side of the fairway to open up the clear view of the green and pin.   If you bail right, you can just see the top of the flagstick.  I love that kind of strategic hole.



What you see after a bail out!


TEPaul

Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #53 on: May 10, 2010, 11:27:02 PM »
That's crap. One definitely does not need to drive it so far down the left side of #17 the green is visible. It's just fine to take an iron and drive it right over that left side carry bunker. From there you just have a wedge, you get the yardage to the pin and hit it to the blind green.

The only peculiarity to that hole is the fairway to the right of the mid-fairway bunkers (not the convex bunker in front of the green). I have never seen any good player try to hit it over there off the tee. The only reason that fairway is over there is the tees on that hole are about 80 yards to the left of where they were originally designed.

Interesting fake-out look over to the right side of the fairway though from the present back tees for men! ;)

By the way, on a curvilnear line that entire fairway is about 125 yards wide!  8)

Bill_McBride

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Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #54 on: May 11, 2010, 09:34:30 AM »
That's crap. One definitely does not need to drive it so far down the left side of #17 the green is visible. It's just fine to take an iron and drive it right over that left side carry bunker. From there you just have a wedge, you get the yardage to the pin and hit it to the blind green.


"That's crap"?

In the statement above you agree that the shot to the green is blind if you lay up.  I posted a photo of that blind shot.  What's in your coffee this morning - other than cream and sugar?   ???   ;D

TEPaul

Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #55 on: May 11, 2010, 09:43:21 AM »
Bill McBride:

Perhaps you assume it but I definitely did not learn the approach to the 17th green is blind after hitting an iron over the left carry bunker from your photograph above. It's amazing how when some on here put something on this website they seem to assume they are revealing something to the whole world of golf and golfers heretofore not known. That tendency on here is very, ah, well, very Tom MacWoodish. ;)

And frankly, your caption to that photo says the shot to the green after a bail out. The shot from the tee to the green in that photo is not a bail out from the tee at all. It is basically for me a 2 iron dead straight right over the middle of that big left carry bunker! I've done it scores of times.

PS:
And the coffee is morning is just Maxwell House, an envelop of Splenda and a dollup of French Vanilla cream.   :P
« Last Edit: May 11, 2010, 09:55:31 AM by TEPaul »

Mike McGuire

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Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #56 on: May 11, 2010, 11:11:37 AM »

Whats with the ornamental grasses on top of that hill on 17? 

Bill_McBride

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Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #57 on: May 11, 2010, 11:16:35 AM »
Bill McBride:

Perhaps you assume it but I definitely did not learn the approach to the 17th green is blind after hitting an iron over the left carry bunker from your photograph above. It's amazing how when some on here put something on this website they seem to assume they are revealing something to the whole world of golf and golfers heretofore not known. That tendency on here is very, ah, well, very Tom MacWoodish. ;)

And frankly, your caption to that photo says the shot to the green after a bail out. The shot from the tee to the green in that photo is not a bail out from the tee at all. It is basically for me a 2 iron dead straight right over the middle of that big left carry bunker! I've done it scores of times.

PS:
And the coffee is morning is just Maxwell House, an envelop of Splenda and a dollup of French Vanilla cream.   :P

The farther left you go off the tee at #17, opening up the view of the green, the longer the tee shot has to be.  That's why I referred to the shot in the second photo as a bail out.  The tee ball to get an open view has to be what, 30 yards longer?  And the penalty for failure is stiff.

Sorry to act ""MacWoodish," nice adjective!   ::)

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #58 on: May 11, 2010, 11:17:15 AM »
On 17, if you stay to the right and back far enough, there is a view of the green. 

Position 1 is about 235 yards from the tips and leaves you with an approach of around 125 to the middle.  From here, you can see the green.




Yet if you move closer to the green and further left (position 2), you have a shorter approach (maybe 110) but the approach is blind (as Bill mentioned).




TEPaul

Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #59 on: May 11, 2010, 11:19:28 AM »
Mike:

That kind of stuff has been on top of that convex sand bunker, and a few others on the course, on and off for many, many years even though in the old days it was a whole lot more scraggily then it appears now.

The use of so-called Marram grass in sand bunkers goes back a long, long way in this country and I guess elsewhere and a good number of architects used it and recommended it including Donald Ross from time to time.

TEPaul

Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #60 on: May 11, 2010, 11:26:45 AM »
"Sorry to act ""MacWoodish," nice adjective!     :o"



Bill McBride:


It was a toss-up between "MacWoodish" or "MacWoodian."

Which do you prefer?  And I'm not that sure either even is an adjective; it might be an adverb or an adjective that is vaguely adverbish, or perhaps vice-a-versaian. Do you think we should have a 20 page discussion on the multiple distinctions?

However, you may need to watch your step on here for fear of some day being labeled "Moriartyonian." I doubt the qualifier "nice" would ever fit well with that particular label.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2010, 11:32:39 AM by TEPaul »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #61 on: May 11, 2010, 11:29:37 AM »
"Sorry to act ""MacWoodish," nice adjective!     :o"



Bill McBride:


It was a toss-up between "MacWoodish" and "MacWoodian."

Which do you prefer?  And I'm not that sure either even is an adjective; it might be an adverb or an adjective that is vaguely adverbish, or perhaps vice-a-versaian. Do you think we should have a 20 page discussion on the multiple distinctions?

I suspect 20 pages would merely scratch the surface!

TEPaul

Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #62 on: May 11, 2010, 12:26:42 PM »
"I suspect 20 pages would merely scratch the surface!"


Bill McB:

I understand. Would it be OK with you if we just said we did but didn't?  ;)
 

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #63 on: May 11, 2010, 12:42:40 PM »
"I suspect 20 pages would merely scratch the surface!"


Bill McB:

I understand. Would it be OK with you if we just said we did but didn't?  ;)
 


Absolutely!  (As the character in "Moonstruck" said when the waiter asked him if he wanted a martini.)

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #64 on: May 11, 2010, 08:27:40 PM »
Mike-

That grass on top of #17 fairway bunker seems to be cut down or removed?

Mike-

Correct, that was my wife's Mothers Day present camera I took, not mine ;D

Tom/Bill-

One of the guys in my group flew the main series of fairway bunkers on #17 and ended up in one of those pots in front of the green.  He made double though!

Chip

Patrick_Mucci

Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #65 on: May 11, 2010, 08:30:08 PM »

Bearing in mind my post No.2 on this thread which stated that this is just about the No.1 course I want to see, am I allowed to offer a negative opinion?...

I really don't like the cross-hatching on the approaches... Far too "busy"...

Understood, BUT, that mowing makes the fronts tighter and faster, which presents a benefit to the ground game and a danger to both the aerial and ground game.


How?

Double-cutting helps with that. Crosshatching can be a form of double cutting.

Didn't you bother to examine the photos of the approaches to the greens ?

# 12 for example.

If you and that idiot savant TEPaul don't understand how double cutting the approach in a criss cross pattern makes the approach "tighter" and "faster" you shouldn't be on this site.


Patrick_Mucci

Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #66 on: May 11, 2010, 09:36:34 PM »
Chip,

I'd be happy to discuss any of the holes.

Which places at NGLA don't you get ?

There's an incredible amount of subtlety that becomes all too apparent when you make a mistake.
Repeat play helps reveal more and more about the course.

It is truely unique .... and fun.

Pat -

A few places that I can't see the subtlety....

#2  Once you get over the idea of a blind driver, its just a drive and flip wedge to a flat green???

That's a very narrow perspective from which to view the hole.
Do you always hit the fairway on your drives ?
Especially on a blind drive.

Drives that miss the fairway and find the hollows or drives that don't make the fairway over the bunker are left with blind shots to the green.
When the hole location is near the perimeter of the green, that's a very dicey approach, one that can lead to a very long putt or a ball going back off the green.

But, let's assume you hit the fairway.
If the hole is cut close to the front edge, how do you play the shot ?

If the hole is cut along the flanks, how do you play the shot.  And, if the hole is cut along the back edge, how do you play the shot.

The beauty of this hole, like the first, is the expectation of birdie or eagle, based on the yardage, thus, when something goes awry on the drive, pressure builds on the approach and recovery shots.

Hitting a blind approach close to the hole is no easy task, and when that green is fast and firm, it requires knowledge and a delicate touch to prevent a bogey.

The hole was never meant to overpower the golfer, it was meant to play to his ego and the expectation of a good score.
Walking off that green, having made a par, is often a downer in the golfer's mind.

And, those walking off the green with a bogey find themselves disappointed and/or depressed, and now face two of the tougher holes on the golf course. 


#3 I realize this is one of the most beloved holes on the course (if not the world) but I simply don't see the novelty in hitting a 180 yard six iron approach shot over a 50 foot tall hill.  I realize I in the minority on this, but I just don't see it.

So you're not tempted to hit up the right side, leaving you closer to the green with perhaps a view of the flag if the hole is cut far right ?

This hole provides another early test.
How does the golfer react to a bad bounce, or bad luck.
How does the golfer handle a recovery when he thought he hit a good shot.
How does the golfer handle a difficult 50 foot putt when he thought he was stiff ?

Recovering to that green is a great test, a test made more difficult by certain hole locations

And, once again, you've assumed a perfect drive.
Drives hit to the right and shorter in the DZ are on a downslope, others on an upslope making judgement on the approach another factor for consideration

Often, the result, in score, doesn't reflect the quality of the shots, for better or for worse.


#10  Flat, straight and easy?  What did I miss?

A drive drawn/hooked will find itself on a substantial sideslope or down in the left side bunker
Drives going up the right side can easily find themselves in the woods.

But, even if you've hit two good shots, the approach into that green can be very dicey, especially if the hole is cut close to the flank or back perimeter.

What I'd like to do with you to illustrate my point is to put you 60-80-100 yards from the green, have the hole in certain locations and bet you, with you giving me odds, on your ability to make par, not birdie, but par.  And, when the wind is up, getting close to those locations is even more difficult.  With NGLA having fast and firm greens, two putting from 60-80 feet is no easy task.


#17 200 yard tee layup tee shot to the widest (40 yard wide) part of the fairway and then a wedge to the flattest green on the course?

A 200 yard layup drive will leave you on a downhill slope, probably with wind at your back.
If the hole is cut up front, or at the right flank or back of the green, that' shot isn't as easy as you think, especially when something is on the line, like trying to qualify or being 1 up or 1 down in your match.


Again, I think National is fantastic, but there are places I haven't quite figured out the subtlety yet.


Like Mike Tyson says, "everybody has a game plan until they get hit."
It's easy to play make believe rounds and hit phantom shots, but, when the course is Fast and Firm, the wind up and there's something on the line, those holes and shots you think are easy, are anything but.

Repeat play is the greatest educator



Bill_McBride

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Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #67 on: May 11, 2010, 09:50:08 PM »
Pat, did you ever finish your tour of NGLA?  That was great stuff.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #68 on: May 12, 2010, 02:35:54 AM »

Bearing in mind my post No.2 on this thread which stated that this is just about the No.1 course I want to see, am I allowed to offer a negative opinion?...

I really don't like the cross-hatching on the approaches... Far too "busy"...

Understood, BUT, that mowing makes the fronts tighter and faster, which presents a benefit to the ground game and a danger to both the aerial and ground game.


How?

Double-cutting helps with that. Crosshatching can be a form of double cutting.

Didn't you bother to examine the photos of the approaches to the greens ?

# 12 for example.

If you and that idiot savant TEPaul don't understand how double cutting the approach in a criss cross pattern makes the approach "tighter" and "faster" you shouldn't be on this site.


Patrick,

At the risk of incurring your wrath in the same way as Mr. Harris and Mr. Paul, I still don't see how double-mowing in a cross-hatch pattern is any tighter and faster than double-mowing in a traditional pattern...

TEPaul

Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #69 on: May 12, 2010, 08:37:51 AM »
"Patrick,
At the risk of incurring your wrath in the same way as Mr. Harris and Mr. Paul, I still don't see how double-mowing in a cross-hatch pattern is any tighter and faster than double-mowing in a traditional pattern..."


Ally:

Exactly. There is no logic in what Pat said since mowing is just mowing. If you cut an approach in a one way pattern instead of a cross hatch pattern it makes very little difference with the bounce and rollout of the ball. Some people think a ball will be significantly affected if it lands in the dark mow pattern (into the grain) rather than the lighter pattern (down grain) but the fact is that is very mininimal. That is essentially proven by how far a ball can bounce and rollout even in light rough if in fact the ground is very hard and firm.

There's no actually logic in most of the things Pat Mucci says on here and in his semi-hysterical reactions when people counter him. That is just sort of a North Jersey thing, something like Joe Pesci in the movie "My Cousin Vinnie." The fact is people like that just love to argue; they basically life to argue.

Pat's architectural knowledge has improved somewhat over the last ten years or so when I've been training him but he is definitely one of my slowest and worst students, or perhaps it's got a lot to do with his natural contrariness (Devil's Advocacy) and his "My Cousin Vinnie" type love of arguing just for the sake of arguing.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2010, 08:43:41 AM by TEPaul »

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #70 on: May 12, 2010, 09:29:49 AM »
Pat, did you ever finish your tour of NGLA?  That was great stuff.

As someone who's tried to pester him to do so,no he hasn't.

The Magical Mystery Tour got sidetracked somewhere between 6 green and 7 tee.


Patrick_Mucci

Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #71 on: May 12, 2010, 01:39:28 PM »
JME & Bill,

You're right, I think the 6th hole was the last hole described.
It's on my agenda, it's just on the back burner.

Ally, et. al.,

What's the "traditional" pattern ?

Have you ever heard of PGA Tour pros trying to avoid the dull side of the fairway on their tee shots ?
Prefering the "shiny" side.
Why do you think they'd want to do that ?

Tom Birkert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #72 on: May 12, 2010, 01:46:23 PM »
What a special place it is, the pictures bring back so many memories having been fortunate enough to play there in 2007...

It is also a course that I think rewards local knowledge, and as such would be a perfect "Members" course.

Sadly it doesn't look like I'm playing it during my upcoming trip, but that gives me even more reason to return when the opportunity arises in the future!

Being next to Shinnecock yet being so different in character in my opinion makes both courses even more special than they already are.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #73 on: May 12, 2010, 02:08:47 PM »
Tom,

An old friend of mine, Joe McBride, an exceptional golfer and a great guy, showed me dozens and dozens of ways to play shots at NGLA.   Shots that you wouldn't think of in the normal course of play.

I think that unique quality ties into something that Rees Jones told me years ago.
He said that everytime he visits NGLA he picks up new subtleties in the architecture.

When I combine what Joe McBride showed me with what Rees told me it seems to indicate that repeat play/local knowledge can be huge factors in navigating yourself around the golf course.

I deliberately asked Chip Gaskins how he would play a little approach shot into # 2 when the hole is located near the front of the green.

When conditions are firm and fast, and they can get really firm and fast at NGLA, and when the wind is up, knowing how to play a variety of shots into those greens, or recovering to those greens can present a far more difficult challenge than meets the eye.

I've watched golfers try to use the downslope on their approach into # 2.
I've seen them try to bump and run the shot.
Often, it hits the downslope and takes off, either over the green or to the back of the green leaving them a long putt.
I've seen guys hit a little flop wedge short of the green, hoping to bounce it on, close to the front hole location.
The look on their face, and the words from their mouths are interesting, when they see their ball come to a dead stop, because an almost imperceptible upslope rises out of the valley made by the downslope and front of the green.

That type of subtlety goes unnoticed unless you've experienced or witnessed those shots and the results.

There are so many greens, like # 7, # 12, # 15 and others that can frustrate the unknowing golfer with his approach and recovery shots.

Joe McBride used to drive opponents crazy with his dazzling, unique play.

One story revolves around a golfer who became a PGA Tour player.
He was a great player, almost having won the U.S. Open.
He was long, hit great irons and had a great touch.  He would outdrive Joe by substantial distances.
You don't make and stay on the PGA Tour by not being a great player.
Joe killed him at NGLA and Joe was not a young man, but, he was a very good player and knew all the nuances of NGLA.

As I said, he showed me shots I never would have thought of, but, they worked amazingly well at NGLA.

As I think about it, like Seminole, I think you have to stay away from the perimeters of the greens at NGLA, but, when the holes are located close to the perimeter, it presents a real dilema for the golfer.

TEPaul

Re: National Golf Links of America (revised)
« Reply #74 on: May 12, 2010, 02:21:31 PM »
"I've watched golfers try to use the downslope on their approach into # 2.
I've seen them try to bump and run the shot.
Often, it hits the downslope and takes off, either over the green or to the back of the green leaving them a long putt.
I've seen guys hit a little flop wedge short of the green, hoping to bounce it on, close to the front hole location.
The look on their face, and the words from their mouths are interesting, when they see their ball come to a dead stop, because an almost imperceptible upslope rises out of the valley made by the downslope and front of the green."


Pat:

That's interesting. For me there was another and much better way, a much better strategy at least for me to approach that green that I seemed to do every time without much problem at all. I don't recall ever being right in front of that green for an approach. Another reason the hole is so interesting---eg good multi options.


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