[John Kirk]

I have another question.  I don't believe it has been posed yet.

In "The Evangelist of Golf", George Bahto describes the typical Double Plateau as a long par 4.  Old Macdonald #1, according to my sources, is about 365 yards long (341 yards to the front of the green, according to the caddie shack) and slightly uphill, not long by today's standards.

Could you discuss any of the thought behind making this a mid-length opener?  Thanks.

[Matt_Ward]

John:

When played in the prvailing summer wind -- the hole is far longer than the card yardage.

As I said before -- I'd like to see how much variety / versatility the hole provides when the wind switches to being behind the player.

Into the wind the bunker on the left is simply more of an alignment location than a clear hazard -- unless Bubba Watson busts one into a 20-25 mph wind.

I do agree with you -- hitting to either the front left or the back right requires the highest of skills -- especially when into the wind -- I can only imagine what it's like when the wind is behind the player.

[John Mayhugh]

A few additional photos.

The front left plateau from the right center of the green.  This gives a little better sense of the height of the plateau.



A look towards the second hole from the first green.



And from the second tee looking back at the first green.  The flow from green to tee is an example of the wonderful shaping.

[JC Urbina]

RJ,

The left grassing line is almost parallel  to the high ridge line on the right.  For some reason the pictures are always taken from the middle tee.  If you stand on the back tee and aim to the flag on the middle of the green you are playing the hole at a slight diagonal across that  left fairway line.  The back tee is fluid for now.  A clubhouse footprint was laid out and the back tee for # 1 was to be right up against the window of the pub, so that you could sit at arms length to the back tee players without disturbing them.  It's only in the planning stages so for now the retrofitted barn serves as the clubhouse.  I have grown to like the check in area and adds to the overall look of Old Mac.

In order to make the grassing line on the right look pleasing to the eye the left had to be as you see it.  A V looking fairway or a slight curve would have thrown the line out of whack.  The bunkers on the right help support the right line, the left fairway line is slightly broken up by the tree line. The hump in the fairway line helps disguise the left edge as it goes over that feature.

  What is key was the fairway line coming from left to right in the far distance that helps distort the distance and almost makes it look like your closed off but really you still have rollout on the left side. The way the fairway ends is really the most important part of this hole.  Having lines disappear into the distance gives the sense of length when in fact this hole is relatively short but a nice way to start off  your round.   The yardages on # 1 are just right for Old Mac and the start of your round.

 

[RJ_Daley]

Jim, that was a really appreciated description of the process of what went into designing and building/maintaining that hole.  Thanks.

I think a DVD with sound narrative, photos and video clips where available would sell more so than a book.  I'm surprised that one of the more prolific golf book writers haven't done that yet, ala Ken Burns.  Your powerpoint with some professional producing and editing might be a real break through in GCA literature, if you have enough material in various media.

[Tom_Doak]

Could you discuss any of the thought behind making this a mid-length opener?  Thanks.

John:

First, 360 yards into the summer wind in Bandon IS a fairly long par-4.

Second, the clubhouse point was relatively fixed by a planned future "golf village" [though I think it will be quite a few years now before the village appears].  And the point where you go over the ridge on #3 was pretty well fixed by the big tree.  So, we pretty much had to have a par-5 opener into the wind, or a medium-length par 4 plus a medium-length par 3.  I chose the latter, and when we got the clearing half done and the second green site sat up just like the Eden hole we had penciled in there, we figured we were on track.

In general, I prefer medium par-4 openers anyway.  And Macdonald's were all over the map -- from the first at National (very short) to the first at The Creek (medium-short) to the first at Mid Ocean (medium-long) to the first at Piping Rock (pretty long) -- but there were almost always par-4 holes, as far as I can recall.

[John Kirk]

Thanks, Tom.  It's a delightful hole.

The back/middle pin placement is very good.  Get a little frisky and you could end up in that back bunker.

[Peter Pallotta]

That's a very nice use of trees, too -- behind the hole like that, from the fairway looking like they encroach on that back plateau.  I'd imagine they'd  probably make me more hesitant to play the hole (without much wind) 2 iron - 4 iron, bringing the 4 iron in low (the only way I can hit it) and having it scoot up and run all the way to the back pin.  Visually they are also nice in that they mirror/reflect the 'height' of that back plateau.

Peter  

[Tom Johnston]

Tim - thanks for the effort that went into this, and thanks to all for the discussion.  -TJ

[Tim Bert]

Hole #2 - par 3 - Eden
Back tee - 181 yards
Middle tee - 162 yards

Not much of a walk from the 1st green to the 2nd tee.  This is a pretty common theme at Old Macdonald, with a few exceptions.  Though the green here is quite large, as are most of the putting surfaces as Old MacDonald, one probably doesn't appreciate the full size standing on the tee.  This is perhaps due to the angle to the green or the contours masking the full size, but even more likely because of the expansive area surrounding the green.  As mentioned in the commentary on #1, there is a tremendous amount of space on this side of the ridge that will likely never come into play on these holes.  Kudos to the design team for making the course seem small with short green to tee walks yet making the course seem so large due to all the open spaces.

Many US players with only domestic experience, like myself, will probably have not played a true Eden hole before playing #2 at Old Macdonald.  I've played the "Eden" at Yale as well as a handful of other replicas, but none have captured the fear of Strath bunker combined with a terrorizing penalty for those missing long on the green.  This one feels about right to me!  The opening day pin was placed just over the bunker.  Most of us were firing to the front of the green with very moderate morning wind, but looking back at the movement and the size of the green one is left with the impression that many golfers will face some nerve-wracking putts on this hole.

The bunker is as deep as is practical for a course that will get so many rounds.  I like to think that I'd like it to be a bit deeper, but that's only if I didn't have to hit shots out of it.  I found the "notch" on the back of the bunker to be an interesting feature.  Not sure if it was planned or just happened, but there is a small area that is sloped front to back above this bunker that will actually propel the ball onto the green instead of deflecting the ball into the bunker.  I know because I was a very lucky recipient of a favorable lunge forward.  The area is too small to aim for, though one should certainly claim credit for playing the architecture when one hits it.

One of the best holes on a course full of great ones.  Probably my favorite par 3 at Old Macdonald, though I suspect this will be the minority opinion.

From the tee


Slightly zoomed in from the tee


Approaching the green


A view of the green and the pin, guarded by the bunker


A closer look at the bunker, as well as what is unfortunately the best look I have at the green.  I didn't get one from behind.


Looking at Eden from #3


One last look from Eden green with the lone tree on the ridge in the foreground.

[Tom_Doak]

Tim:

One of my favorite things about the opening at Old Macdonald is that you can see the green and the Strath bunker on the 2nd hole when you are standing on the first tee.  That was just a lucky accident, but I think it's a very cool feature to get this hole in your mind even before you play the relatively easy opening tee shot.

[Tim Bert]

Tim:

One of my favorite things about the opening at Old Macdonald is that you can see the green and the Strath bunker on the 2nd hole when you are standing on the first tee.  That was just a lucky accident, but I think it's a very cool feature to get this hole in your mind even before you play the relatively easy opening tee shot.

Honestly I was too nervous sweating the giant ridge on Sahara (also obviously in view from the first tee) to notice Strath on #1.

[Ronald Montesano]

God Bless You, Tom, you give us all way too much credit and vision prowess...what would that bunker be, about 550 yards from the first tee?  Hopefully, I'll get back to Bandon before all of my eyesight is gone.

[Bill_McBride]

Wow, that Strath bunker looks like it's been there forever!

This "Eden" looks better than any American replicas I've seen.

For those who have played here and at St Andrews, how does the back to front slope compare?  That might be the most terrifying thing at TOC.

[Jeff Taylor]

Exceptional photos of exceptional work.

[Bill_McBride]

The Strath is a work of art. Interesting contrast between the Strath and Hill bunkers, the look. Fairway/tee all the way to the green. MacKenzie spoke of putting to the High green at TOC. Didn't Macdonald hate that idea and sometimes put a water body between the tee and green to prevent even the thought, or am I mixing stories here.

Good question on the slope Bill, be interesting to hear the response.

Kelly, I actually meant to ask about both slopes, back to front AND left to right.  I think it's the combination of those slopes that makes the putting so difficult at TOC's Eden.  Hopefully someone will respond.

[I absolutely cannot wait until March 2011 when the King's Putter meets Old Macdonald!  Tim's thread has me all a-twitter.....]

[Steve Lang]

  Bill, Just get on a plane and get out there or take 24 hrs on I-10 to I-5 and the 2-lane to Bandon and get it out of your system..

[Bill_McBride]

Bill, Just get on a plane and get out there or take 24 hrs on I-10 to I-5 and the 2-lane to Bandon and get it out of your system..

LOL.  Good idea but I'm on a flight to London Monday to the Buda. Bandon must wait until March! 

[Tom_Doak]

The green is not as severe from back to front as at St. Andrews.  At St. Andrews you can hardly use the left half of the green anymore; at Old Macdonald that part is 2-3%.  But, there is a big slope [sort of a spine] to the left and behind the Strath, so that shots right of center will feed around and down to the hole behind the bunker ... or get stuck up on a back right tier, putting down a steep slope.

I noticed at the Open this year that they were using hole locations further right on the 11th green than I have seen before.  I think that with the wind being strong, they just couldn't use any hole locations to the left of Strath at all.  We were VERY conscious that the prevailing summer wind would make the slope in our green putt even quicker than the number, so we had to play it a bit safe there.

[Mike Hamilton]

Quote from Tom_Doak:Tim:One of my favorite things about the opening at Old Macdonald is that you can see the green and the Strath bunker on the 2nd hole when you are standing on the first tee.  That was just a lucky accident, but I think it's a very cool feature to get this hole in your mind even before you play the relatively easy opening tee shot.


Tom,

I like the way you just glide into the course.  The fairway starts right beyond  the starter hut and carries you through the 2nd green.  Great first holes, the rest of the course other than 18 hidden by the ridge on the left leading to the drama of the 3rd tee.

Mike

[Jeffrey Stein]

Very flattering comments about the Strath Kelly...  I havent been back to Old Mac in almost a year now but I can clearly see from these photos how much credit CJ, Ken, and the rest of the crew deserve for turning out such an oustanding look for this golf course. 

Here is a link to a thread on the construction of the Strath.   

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43629.0/

[Tom_Doak]

There is a sameness prevading the bunkering at TOC and the Strath seems to be a part of this as well as the Road Hole. The top line of OM Strath is broken, the front seems much lower and more capable of catching a ball. It essentially is a round bunker like the one at TOC but it has a visual quality that exceeds it and appears to be more "in play". From a distance it appears round but the close ups reveal something more complex as opposed to the TOC Strath which looks round from a distance and looks round up close. It may seem odd to say but the next time TOC wants to rebuild a bunker they should probably bring over the OM crew!

Kelly:

Flattery will get you nowhere! 

Seriously, though, the Strath at St. Andrews is one of the few bunkers there that HASN'T changed much since the first time I saw it; it was always just vertical and deep.  I think in general, the bunkers at the Old Course have lost a bit of their shape and character because of the relentless pressure from the R & A to make the bunkers play more difficult for the Open championship.  They've taken the revetting right up as high as they can in most places, so the bunkers all look the same now.  Hell is the worst of them ... it used to be beautiful.

The crew at Muirfield are still the masters of the revetting trade, though.  They rebuild 20-30 bunkers a year and never miss a trick.  The Renaissance Club's superintendent Paul Seago came over from Gullane, and his crew are great craftsmen, too.

[Mike Benham]

I put the over/under on this topic at 22 pages, 800 replies ...

[Carl Nichols]

I'll take the over

[jonathan_becker]

I love this type of thread and thanks to everyone that is contributing to it.

Tim,

I know you want to take your time, but please wrap it up by November 3 as I'm first off at OM on the 4th. 

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