[Bryan Izatt]

Tim,

Glad to see you're back.  I hope you finish before the KP.

Seems to me that there are four aspects to the original road hole.

1  A blind tee shot over a vertical wall that appears to be in your face.

2  OB death tight up against the preferred line on the right side of the fairway.

3  A long second shot that needs to avoid the collecting bunker in front.

4  How to recover from the road that is hard against the back of the green.

From the pictures, I don't see the blind, vertical challenge off the tee.  Perhaps the bunkers provide a longitudinal analog to inject fear in trying to drive on the right side.

If the gorse were to run up tight along the right side of the fairway that might be an analog to the hotel OB on the original.  Hard to tell from the pictures where the gorse is.  Is there room to bail out in the LZ?

The bunker looks fairly daunting if the second is a long shot.  But, it is less daunting than the original, regardless of size, because there appears to be plenty of green on both sides of it to work with.  The green itself looks to be significantly larger than the original.  Twice as big?  More?

No pictures of the back.  What is back there that is an analog for the road?


 

[Tim Bert]

Brian - keep in mind, I haven't played the original. I will do my best to offer my opinion until someone more knowledgeable comes to the rescue.

There is no vertical challenge, but the gorse I believe is somewhat representative of the hotel and right side OB. Hit it in the gorse odds are it is lost or unplayable. I don't think the gorse extends for nearly as long by the fairway as the OB at #17. I also think that the fairway is more generous here and I don't think the line for most golfers is quite as awkward. I don't think the bunker nor the green are as penal. Behind the green is a steep drop off that I suppose re-creates some of the challenges of getting back up and down from the road but again because I think the green is much larger I don't think the same fear factor exists there either.

I would say that this hole is definitely not a replica hole and I'd imagine Jim or Tom would agree. It loosely relays the concepts of the road hole, does it better than some of the lesser versions I've seen (Yale, for instance), but it doesn't transplant one to St. andrews. I think on its own merits this hole does fine, but it is probably diminished by some of us that were somehow hopeful that we were going to get the 17th at The Old Course without going overseas.  

[Richard Choi]

This was definitely the hole that I was anticipating the most and I walked away a bit disappointed.

I think the lack of the vertical challenge off the tee is okay. The gorse running along the right and the mounds make the drive somewhat blind and challenging enough.

However, I don't think the green and the surroundings are not the back breaker that the most famous road hole is.

First, there is no road equivalent. The green is raised up and the drop in the back is very abrupt so if you miss long, it is certainly a tough up and down, but it does not instill kind of fear and challenge that the road brings with its accompanying stone wall. Because the threat of going long is not so severe, it lessens the importance of the road bunker since you don't have the same kind of fear of going long.

Second, at the 17th at TOC, the really preferred play is to layup short on the front of the green to the right. With OldMac 11th, you can also target the left side as well. There is enough landing area on the left and the green is oriented such that up and down from the left side is not a very hard shot (at least equal in difficulty as going right of the green). I think that lessens the importance of the angle off the tee.

I still had a blast playing it (and it was fun playing out of the road hole bunker), but I think my expectations were a bit too high going in.

[Anton]

It appears in your approach shot photo that the fairway is pitched right while the hole makes its bend back to the left.  This appears to have a much greater slope right than the landing area at TOC.  This 'double cross' makes it very difficult to steer a shot from right to left into the green like at TOC.  I wonder if T Doak planned on allowing this 'Road Hole' to differ from the original in this regard: meaning allowing a player to work the ball either way into the putting surface.  Did you notice this fairway pitch in-person or is it just the way the photo turned out?

Great photos!  I am a new member and have enjoyed the review of Old Mac you have presented.  I was fortunate to play Bandon in 1999 when it first opened.  Hope to make a return trip soon to check out first hand everything that is new. 

[Alex Miller]

For Tom Doak:

Did you ever at any point consider a back bunker (flat, like a road), or did you have a general idea from the get go?

Edit/ -like this one?

[Peter Ferlicca]

Here are some pics from when I played the 10 hole loop in April 2009.  I have played the original in Scotland, and though many may not think this is close, I thought it was a great hole that brings back good memories.  I am pretty sure the green is the same amount of paces deep as the original.  And guys, come on, it is not like Doak and Urbina were going to build a fake road and stone wall behind this green, that would have looked extremely tacky.  It's not like Raynor & MacDonald ever did that on any of their replicas.

From the photos I will post below, you will notice the road hole bunker has weathered big time over a couple of years.  I LOVE THE LOOK NOW.  Just can't wait to see the pictures of this course 10 years from now, it will only get better with time.
Here are views of the green and approach

[Sven Nilsen]

I'd be interested to know how many of the commentators above played to a back or middle pin.  The day I played, the pin was cut on the ledge at the front right of the green.  A recovery from right of the green to that position was no picnic.

As far as comparisons to its namesake, it seems folks are focusing on the particulars, and not looking at the general feel and play of the hole.  Both holes ask you to hug the trouble on the right to get the preferred line into the green (TOC - OB, OM - bunkers).  If you play out to the left you not only sacrifice distance (making a long hole even longer), but you are faced with taking on the RHB and dealing with green contours that for certain pin placements would require an exacting shot to hold the green.  From the right, you are in line with the slightly left to right angle of the green and have the chance to use the ground game without having to flirt with the RHB.

To me, OM had a great combination of holes that "collect" and holes that "deflect."  I thought 1, 3, 5, 8, 13, 15, 16, 17 and 18 fell in the former group, with 2, 4, 6, 7, 9, 10, 11, 12, 14 in the latter.

[jonathan_becker]

Here's a photo that I took from the first week of November that shows the growth on the bunker wall.

[Carl Rogers]

How would some of you describe the green speeds?

[jonathan_becker]

How would some of you describe the green speeds?

When I was there the fog was in full effect and it made the greens extremely slow.  Like, maybe rolling at 7 or 8 tops.  It was to the point where late in the day the ball would start collecting sand on it as soon as it started rolling.  I remember I had a 50 foot eagle putt on 17 that I crushed and it got about halfway to the hole.   Also, most other putts within 10 feet had to be hammered to keep the line. 

It's difficult to make yourself hit the ball that hard.  Maybe others that played this summer experienced faster speeds.

[John Kirk]

I like #11 a lot.  I mentioned in another thread that a couple times I tried to hit my second shot left of the Road bunker when the pin was in the left hand position, behind that bunker.  Tom Doak thought that was risky, but I made par both times.  Unlike Rich, I am very impressed with the difficulty of this hole.  In fact, I think it is a very difficult hole.

[Scott Weersing]

I have not played this hole, but will next week, and I have not played TOC, but I think this hole at Old Mac would be considered a road hole because of the preferred line of play, the bunker and the shape of the green. It does need a road to be a road hole. The road hole could have been called the hotel hole but fortunately it is not.

Looking at these photos, the green and the bunker remind me a little of the 13th green at Rustic Canyon. I am not saying they are the same because the 13th green at Rustic is high on the right and low on the left. But I like the idea of a green wrapped around a bunker.

I guess this tour will not be complete by the time I play Old Mac but I hope to add some photos to this tour after I play.

[JC Urbina]

PFerlicca

I can tell from the photos that you were playing during the 10 hole preview round.  I saw the irrigation pipe laying on the ground behind the green.  We were just getting ready to plow in the irrigation for Hole # 12 - The Redan.   You can tell by the trim lines around the bunker  that was the second version ( thanks to CJ,  asst super at Old MAc)  of the stacked sod wall, I am sure Eric Johnson and crew will revisit sodding it again in the near future if it starts to break down.  I have some construction photos that I may ask Tim Bert to post for me, showing the work building the Road Hole.   The bunker looks like it is getting a lot of action.

John

 One of the reasons the left side is a little more challenging is the slope built into the green.  On the green surface everything from the players right of the road hole bunker has slopes of 1 and 2 % tilt on the green, when I was putting the final float on the left side of the road hole bunker the slopes were reaching 2-4 % tilt and it seemed like the best way to finish out the left side so that's how it stayed.   A little tougher  to putt but as you have proved not unthinkable.  Also flirting with the road hole bunker and rough just left of the green, instead of bailing out way right does pose a risk most players are not willing to test.

We always felt the grass slope would serve as nice obstacle and tightly mown turf behind the green allows for chips and putts, a nice option for the majority of the golfers visiting the resort.

This hole was originally not going to be the road hole.  I remember walking down the fairway with George and Tom and we were discussing the routing and how the 10th hole would present itself and which ideal hole could lend itself to this layout.

Jonathan,

Because the sod wall is facing south it will tend to wear out quicker because of moisture and sun.  I like the rustic look but I am sure the staff will consider rebuilding sooner then later.

Tim

You are right about the road.  If we would have built a road just to imitate the original then it would have been trying to hard to DUPLICATE the hole instead of taking the characteristics that make the hole so fun to play. Besides if we had built a road to simulate the back of the green we would have just been judged on how well we did the road.  We wanted people to enjoy the entire hole.  As we were putting the final touches on the bunker  I remember Ken Nice telling me that our version of the road hole bunker was larger, I agreed and thought to myself,  good it couldn't be the  exact same size,  that was not our intent.


Richard
It sounds like you think the hole would be tougher if these two features were part of the hole.
The hole will present enough of a challenge to most players without the road and wall.  I think the length and angle of the green will test the best players depending on the tee location and wind.  I really like the way the hole turned out and if I built  the hole a hundred times I don't think I could ever bring myself to create the road and wall.  Macdonald didn't on any of his other renditions and Raynor had his chance at Yeamans Hall since a road was platted in for the development right behind the 7th hole and he chose not to do it.  He added a bunker instead.

[Richard Choi]

Jim, I am certainly not advocating that the hole needs actual wall and a road. But I think not having some sort of visual trouble located in the back of the green lessens the fear when you are hitting the approach shot. I think that fear is important because at that point, you are between the rock and the hard place (RH bunker or the road) and puts greater pressure on executing a proper approach.

[Garland Bayley]

I felt that since they were traversing some of the least interesting land on the course, that putting in the features of the road hole was an appropriate choice.

[Scott Weersing]

Well, I am just two days away from playing Old Mac. Yeah, I can't wait. The forecast is for showers and then it improves for the next four days.

I will let you know what surprised me about the course.

[Will MacEwen]

Jim, I am certainly not advocating that the hole needs actual wall and a road. But I think not having some sort of visual trouble located in the back of the green lessens the fear when you are hitting the approach shot. I think that fear is important because at that point, you are between the rock and the hard place (RH bunker or the road) and puts greater pressure on executing a proper approach.

I was about a 5 iron out on this hole, with a tail wind.  It may have been the most vexing approach shot I have ever faced.  I was willing to miss long, and did (way long).  I definitely would have been a club or two down with trouble behind the green.

[JC Urbina]

Richard,

Some sort of hazard like a bunker would have been in the thought process of Macdonald since he used a bunker, sometimes a very deep one like NGLA #7 on all of his versions of the Road Hole.  If we would have put a bunker behind # 11 at Old Mac some of the sand would have just ended up on the green surface, year after year.  The ground behind the green is about 4 feet below the surface and having something visual would be tough.
When playing, the club selection into the wind or downwind proves to be one of the most challenging aspects of the second shot set up,  the road hole bunker the second consideration. I guess  if they wanted to make the hole more difficult behind the green they could just grow-in the rough but having the chance for a recovery shot is really the fun part of golf instead of a buried ball in tall grass or wedged against a rock wall? 
 
I do understand your intention.

Will
Did your ball end up in the rough or just long on the short grass with a chance for a pitch or putt back to the green?

[Will MacEwen]

I think I was in the rough.

I mostly recall being pissed at myself for a stupid shot selection, partially forced by a good second shot from someone I was giving a stroke to.  I hacked around for a tidy 6 as I recall.

I think I flushed a 5 iron when a knockdown 6 was the right play.  Good hole, I blanked out and played like an idiot.

[ed_getka]

This one of the disappointing holes at Old Mac IMO. Only the tee shot though, the green is just a beast to hold from the middle out to the right. I really love the challenge of the approach shot and recovery shots. It was the tee shot that I found lacking. There just wasn't any intimidation factor and given how spastic I am off the tee that is saying something.
   The green site reminded me of a lower version of Foxy at Dornoch with the added bonus of some very nice contouring around the bunker.

[Anthony Gray]

  The mow line up the left makes this hole by squezing the lay up.

  Anthony

[Scott Weersing]

Only two more weeks until I travel to Bandon and play Old Mac. It has been three years since I visited the resort and I am looking forward to my four days there.

I am not expecting to score very well at Old Mac after reading this thread. It would seem that hitting the greens will leave you lots of long putts that could end up being three putt greens. Oh well. I hope the weather stays as good as it has been the last two weeks.

I just returned from four days at the resort and I was able to play Old Mac two times. The first time was an adventure as I did not know where to leave the ball to avoid three putts. The second time was much better as a had two birdies and managed to have fewer three putt greens. The course is unlike anything I have every played before because the greens were beyond big and bold. And the course is not as flat as I thought it would be especially holes 13 to 18.

Here are some photos:

No. 3


No. 5


No. 6 from Pacific Dunes


No. 7


No. 7


No. 15

[Steve Lang]

:<))  Vertically Challenged??.. hmmmm, the road hole..

Now why isn't it called the Shed Hole or Hotel Right Hole?? 

OK.ms sheila hit the lion right in the eye at TOC, but it was very enticing and easy to clear the shed and I only wondered where it actually landed.. I got the same feeling at the road hole at OM by taking the aggressive right path..

[Tim Bert]

Hole #12 - par 3 - Redan
Back tee - 237 yards
Middle tee - 205 yards

The 12th brings to a close what I believe to be one of the toughest, brief stretch of holes I have played anywhere.  In the winter wind we faced, the 9th through the 12th brought a nice touch of reality to our day after three of the four golfers in our group played the first 8 holes in 4-over or better (remember, we are talking mostly low teens handicaps here).  In our morning round, our group recorded exactly 4 pars on this 4 hole stretch.  In the afternoon, we only managed 3 pars on the same stretch.

The Redan at Old Macdonald is like no other that I have played.  I thought I had the basic concept of a Redan down.  Then I came across this one.   I also talked to Jim Urbina in Bandon about the original, and I realized just how different some of the holes that I have played are from the original template.  Some share similar characteristics, but most are very different in style.

Many of the "Redans" I have played have very clear spots to miss right of the green that could be advantageous to a shot striking the green.  When I think of a Redan, I think use the kick plate on the right.  At Old Macdonald, you won't be receiving any helpful kicks if you miss the green to the right!

The green is very long from front to back on a bit of a diagonal from the tee.  It is severely pitched with everything running left.  In a moderate to heavy wind, I would expect that this would be one of the most difficult greens in regulation on the course despite the fact that, unlike #10, everyone gets a sure fire shot at the approach since this is a par 3. 

As I mentioned, if you miss right, you are likely to be kicked further right and then will be left with a rather complicated chip or pitch that will very easily run completely off the green if not struck with great precision.

The fronting bunkers are well short of the green, so a low runner is a definite option here.  This shot will also require a good deal of accuracy.  Most golfers will probably find after multiple plays that their best shot at par here is simply to miss the green left and chip into the pitched green.

I look forward to another shot at this hole that was probably one of my least favorite the day I played it but has grown in my opinion since last May.

A look at the hole from the tee


Another shot from the tee, slightly zoomed in on the bunkers


This photo will show you just how much room there is between the bunkers and the green.


From the front of the putting surface you can see the astounding length of the green


Looking back on the hole show the pitch, but also reveals safer, more level spots on the left side of the green

[jonathan_becker]

For all of you guys playing this weekend, just like Tim states, the correct miss is to the left.  The left greenside bunker is a good miss because you're blasting out to a green that mainly moves back towards the player. 

Also, a slight miss long and left is a good spot as well.  From that area, the player isn't faced with a recovery where the ball will immediately start running away like a miss right would offer.  Both spots are places that will give you a good chance to save 3 and at worst you'll make 4.  Bogey isn't all that bad, either.  This is by far the toughest par 3 on the course.

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