Will The Cal Club And Doug Nickels Take A Bow!!!

[Tim_Weiman]

Rich Goodale:

I was responding to your question/suggestion that ALL trees be removed.

Could I be convinced that a few more trees might be removed?  Yes.  All?  No.

[redanman]

Just for the record, most if not all of those cypress trees at Cal, just as at the O, were planted after the course was laid out.  Early aerials of O lakeside are barren.  that was how Bobby Jones hit #16 Lakeside in two back then, he didn't have to contend with those damned trees.

As a former member, I wouldn't take them all out, but as I posted in the early a.m., leave the dramatic looking ones (Of which there are many) which would be spectacular.  Those cypress buggers grow impressive shapes.

Tom Paul, even you, using William Flynn's drunken ramblings   as a shield, would not have liked Cal Club's claustrophobia at its height.  Believe me, not a sight for small children.  Boy did member's attitudes change after that 1981 El Nino.

[TEPaul]

"...even you, using Flynn's drunken ramblings as a shieild,..."

Uh huh, I see, right you are, not much a fool like Flynn could teach you...., why didn't I realize that? How stupid of me!

[BV]

Tommy

Lighten up.  Look at the pictures, extrapolate and have a laugh.

[TEPaul]

BV:

Let's go rip a palmetto bush out of a course somewhere and flagellate your skin with it for a while!

I said I generally disagree with your philosophy on wholesale removing trees from courses that ORIGINALLY might have used them strategically or otherwise (and I said nothing positive about that first claustrophobic photo of the Cal Club) or your sentiments on an excellent designer who wrote on the subject of the use of trees in architecture and that turns into me picking on poor little old you? Hmmmm!

I think it's anything but--merely some good research based discussion which is what this site is best at.

My point is simple really. First, it's good to find out how and why a respected architect's ideas, writing and probably his philosophies differed from the partyline of some of those on this site. Next it's interesting to figure out how that might have applied to any particular golf course and what he might have intended for it, in this case the issue of how to use trees strategically.

I'm more than willing to have a good laugh at anytime and I hope your remark about "William Flynn's drunken ramblings" is just that--a good laugh.

But after a while let's get serious about what he said and wrote and what it might mean in design and the evolution of mid-twentieth century architecture instead of just implying we know better!

[Doug_Nickels]

Tommy
Thanks for posting the photos.  I have more photos that will perhaps help the discussion that followed and will post as soon as I get some simple how to instructions from you or Pete.  
l would like to say that my work at the Cal Club has been evolving over the past 10 years.  Roger Robarge has been doing a fantastic job and it shows.  We share the same vision and know that it does not happen overnight.  Dennis Mahoney, the GM, has also been invaluable in the process. It is no easy task in making changes and keeping members happy.  

As Gib memtioned, I am involved with several other clubs that have great historical significance (in my opinion).  All of them have tree issues.  I have used these before and after photos in committee meetings and have gotten both positive and negative comments.  When an influential member says "I like the before photo better", you know the tree issue will evolve very slowly.

When it comes to looking at these photos one could say that more trees could have been removed and they would probably be right.  I will not get into the details of the hole at this time but I think the real point here is this is a club that has evolved in a positive manner, that for whatever reasons has stuck with an unknown architect   and that the history of the course is being preserved.

The trees are a only part of what has been evolving at the course.  All of the pieces are now starting to come together but there is still more to do.  

[Gib_Papazian]

Doug,
Why don't you see about posting some photos of your bunker work over there? In  many ways, that is  the  greatest improvement to the golf course.

I like the way #5 and #6 came out.    

[David Wigler]

Doug,

I never saw the Cal Club before your restoration so I cannot compare.  I played it two months ago and absolutely love the way it is now.  You even made some very interesting collecton areas on the new holes.  This course challenged every club in my bag.  One suggestion - reshape, widen or lenthen the fairway on 18.  The tee shot has no landing area as even a well placed shot is kicked into the left rough.  One note, #9 is phenominal.  If it isn't on the list of the 18 best holes in California, then I do not know what is.

[RandyC]

Doug Nichols -

If you ever feel like doing some pro bono work, Eastmoreland GC in Portland could use your services.
 

[Tim_Weiman]

Doug,

Thanks for joining us.  From what little we've seen so far, your work looks great.  I hope you and/or Tommy will be able to post more pictures.

FYI, I'd be curious about the downhill par 3 on the back, if you have any pictures.

[BillV (Guest)]

One suggestion - reshape, widen or lenthen the fairway on 18.  The tee shot has no landing area as even a well placed shot is kicked into the left rough.

#18 was always a tough mother, always will be.  Don't feel bad if it kicked your butt.  The approach is hard to judge because of the wind.  It was hard before the pond was there. 


One note, #9 is phenominal.  If it isn't on the list of the 18 best holes in California, then I do not know what is. The back tee on #9 was added in house about when metal headed drivers came out!  

BTW, What did you think of #'s 4, 10 and 16 (With two sets of tees)?

[David Wigler]

BillV,

I loved 10.  What a fantastic green.  Approach angle really had me thinking.  Loved 16 as well.  The entire back nine was a treat.  You will have to remind me of #4.  It did not leave an impression specific to the hole.  This is a tough course to rate.  Probably a Doak 5 front nine and a Doak 8 back nine.  It ends up between a 6 and 7.  If this course found its way into the bottom half of a top 100 classical list, it would have nothing to apologize for.    The more I think about #9, the better it is.  Talk about a tough but fair hole.  It is world class.  That is my issue with #18.   I know #18 is tough, but do you believe it is fair.  The bunker on the right cannot be driven (At least by me - and I hit it a long way - although it was a little cold and windy).  If you lay up short right, you might not make the hill and you probably cannot get home.  If you execute what appears to be a perfect shot just left of the bunker, you are rewarded by blind fairway bounce that canters your ball into fairly deep rough.  If the fairway was widened, or reshaped, you still would have a hard hole and penalties for guys who go too far left or leave it in the bunker, but a perfect shot would have a reward.  If #9 was on the back nine and #18 was on the front, the back nine at Cal Club would be a Doak 9 in my book and one of the best 10 – 20 nine hole stretches in American golf.

[redanman]

#4 is the S-shaped par 5.  The green is very severe back to front and the hill comes into play on the left for the third.  Going for it in two is totally dependent on getting your drive in a very certain area, simultaneously a very demanding 2 or 3 shot par 5, a rarity.

#5 had its problems depending on trees too much to defend the green, making the back of the green quite unaccessable at tiimes but 6 is OK due to the very small very severe green and the uphill. #7 is a hard hole to judge the wind and it makes for some unusual bunker shots when you wind up fooled and across the green.  A real homer hole!  A guest never wins #7!

The back is better.  The back tee on #15-probably no one but me remembers that  I suggested it and it was  built in 1982 or 3 in house. I really liked the change in angle from there.

All in all a true hidden gem is CalClub, odd considering that there are so few courses in that part of the peninsula, somehow it still gets missed.

[THuckaby2]

All in all a true hidden gem is CalClub, odd considering that there are so few courses in that part of the peninsula, somehow it still gets missed.

For us locals, typically you just plain don't know as many members there and CalClub also seems to host very few outside tournaments.  I've lived here 20 years and played it ONCE.  For visitors with access, let's just say it has lesser "priority" than a few clubs slightly to the north!

That's why not many people talk much about CalClub.  It certainly isn't for lack of quality!

TH

[Doug_Nickels]

Do not take the front too lightly.  As soon as I get the process figured out, I will post more photos.

David - I am a little confused about your description of 18.  The only fairway bunkers are the two diagonal "carry" bunkers on the right.
RandyC - I have a huge interest in anything Chandler Egan designed.  
BillV - I don't know the last time you were at Cal Club but #5 has evolved out of it's "weakest hole on the course" billing. Again, I will try to post a photo today.

[David Wigler]

Doug,

In your description of #18, you may have answered my question.  If those are directional "Carry" bunkers, then there is a fair way to play the hole and it is to clear the bunkers on the right.  I did not realize those bunkers were able to be carried and tried to play left of them.  I only played it once, so I could be wrong about the carry distance.  Obviously it is uphill.  How far is the carry from the back tee over the furthest bunker?  I guess this is why members have an advantage on their home course.  

Thanks for your response.  I did not think that the front nine was a pushover.  I just felt that the back nine was world class.

[Doug_Nickels]

This is an attempt to post a photo of #15.

[img]http://home1.nikonnet.com/sessions/070121058038/2192699lg.jpg[img]

[THuckaby2]

Doug - fret not - that worked, one just has to cut and paste it into one's browser.  Looks damn cool to me.  MASSIVE tree removal since I've been there, from what I remember.

Speaking of that, the routing has faded from my memory.  What's the hole that is so perfectly viewable from southbound 280?  I've "played" that hole hundreds of times, visually, making that drive... There's been some pretty serious tree removal on that one over the years, as I witnessed occur day after day after day when I made that commute...

TH

[guest]

Try this

[BillV (Guest)]

Doug

I really don't think I ever said #5 was the pushover, requiring a draw off the tee and good distance control in the wind on the second shot, I never birdied the hole a whole hell of a lot in my 4 years there.

If I were to pick a weakling.........hmmmmmm...1,8,14,17 were the easiest for me, not that that means anything!  I might say #8 if I were pushed, but then again I wouldn't call any weak.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Doug, feel free to send them to me and I'll post them.