Old Macdonald Voted Best of Bandon

[Kevin Pallier]

Terry

Am glad to hear that your trip was a success.

Interesting outcome re: the vote. I had more fun around OM and that's what would help swing my vote that way as well v PD. I also think the sheer quality of OM's P3's and P5's in particular are a plus for it. Each to their own - they are both the pick of the BD resort bunch though.

[Michael Robin]

Not that this accurately tells the whole story, but here's my match play between OM and PD:

1. OM 1 up
2. OM 1 up (2 at PD is one of my favorite holes in golf, but 2 OM is just that good)
3. OM 2 up
4. OM 1 up (4 OM is stout, the emotion of PD wins out)
5. OM 2 up
6. OM 1 up (tough here, but 6 PD is top 5 short 4s in the world for me)
7. OM 1 up (Emotion of OM is considerable, but I love PD 7)
8. OM 2 up
9. OM 1 up

10. OM 1 up
11. AS (PD one of the best par 3s in golf, but Road is very good)
12. OM 1 up
13. AS
14. AS
15. OM 1 up
16. OM 1 up (both great holes that are tops in their different categories, halve)
17. OM 2 and 1(The best par 5 of RGD's that I've seen carries the day)

OM wins 18 too IMO.

The best set of par 3s and par5s on the 11 RGD courses that I have seen.

[Anthony Gray]

   I would love to walk it early in the morning since I'll be up at 3:00 Pacific time. Is it safe. Bear?

  Anthony

[Tom_Doak]

Michael:

Personally, I disagree with about four of your decisions in the 18-hole match -- especially #3 and #7.  If you're not going to give credit for the ocean on Pacific Dunes #4, then you can't give it for Old Macdonald #7, either.

Of course, I'm biased ... but in this case I'm biased toward BOTH of the courses.

[Ben Sims]

And now for Mark Schlabach's annual "Way To Early Top 25" 

Michael,

I'm surprised you halved #10.  I have OM winning that one by a fairly wide margin over the dual tee par three at PD. 

But I agree with the halve of 14 considerably.  14 at PD is often overlooked as a very good golf hole in my opinion.  I think it would be better than 11 if it were on the ocean. 

Oddly enough, in the argument of 4 and 7, I would go with the inland hole on both.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Agree that golf's "Survival of the Fittest" culls the heard and brings a more ardent, perhaps purer golfer to the courses.

But, a late afternoon, early evening flight from PDX to OTH would certainly help.

Likewise a departing afternoon flight from OTH to PDX would allow golfers to extend their stay/play.
That way they could play 18 in the morning, catch an afternoon flight to PDX and take an afternoon or evening redeye flight east.

[Pete_Pittock]

Pat,
Also survivor of the fattest (wallet). Charter flights are another mode of transport, reasonably priced for groups of four or more.

[Michael Robin]

Ben -

When I play Pacific, 6 out of 10 times, I hope that the green on 9 is the lower one so I can play the lower back tee on 10. Love that hole from there, and just the genius of having the two dramatically different holes based on the teeing grounds gives it a halve for me. Actually, the fact that it is halved speaks about how strong I think Bottle is. Even if I can't quite figure out how to get it into the left bottle yet.

[Michael Robin]

Grrrr - I thought I posted this wonderfully articulate response to Tom D's questioning of my match play. When I went to post it, I got a message stating that there were additional responses since I had tried to reply and did I want to update my response. I didn't know I had to try to post again, so my original response didn't go thru. Frustrating. Will try again later.

[Tom_Doak]

That's what happens when you try to out-articulate me, Robin.  I jam your communications. 

[Kevin Pallier]

I'd hazard a guess that very few decent golfers in playing the OM layout will lose a ball. What other modern designs allow that much width off the tee ?

[Ben Sims]

I'd hazard a guess that very few decent golfers in playing the OM layout will lose a ball. What other modern designs allow that much width off the tee ?

Kevin,

Mr. Nuzzo might have a comment on this.  If not, check out google earth about 14 miles NE of Port Lavaca, TX.  

By the way, I lost a ball on #7 Ocean at Old Mac.  I might've been the first guy to lose a ball out there.  

[Alex Miller]

That's what happens when you try to out-articulate me, Robin.  I jam your communications. 

Gave him the Raspberry did you?

Tom D,

When Mr. Keiser asked you to build another course, did he mention any championship hosting aspirations? I know it may be the longest of the courses at Bandon and there have already been championships, but I was just curious if it was brought up before construction. BTW, I don't necessarily want it to host anything and realize that Bandon is too remote, just thought I'd ask.

[Tom_Doak]

Alex:

I remember that our committee (along with Mike) discussed whether tournament play should be part of the equation at our first meeting, at Sebonack and at National.  I don't remember the exact conversation, but it arose from my question about whether we should stick to the general yardages which Mr. Macdonald ascribed to various template holes, or whether we should build the course with modern distances in mind.

In the end, we sort of compromised.  Old Macdonald is definitely longer than Pacific Dunes or Bandon Trails, and it might be longer than Bandon Dunes if you count some potential places to tee up your ball that aren't on the official scorecard.  [Such possibilities exist on many holes, since there is so much short grass lying around the greens.]  We did note that National hosted the Walker Cup, but had never hosted a professional event; and Mr. Keiser did not ask about the potential for one.  But I do think that if the resort hosts the U.S. Amateur someday, which is a possibility, that Old Macdonald would likely be considered as one of the two host courses for that ... and I honestly have no idea which two they would choose.

[Terry Lavin]

The U.S. Amateur at Bandon Dunes would be mind boggling, in my view.  It would be great for the rest of the country to be exposed to this special place while being able to watch the top amateurs compete for the ultimate prize in amateur golf.  Which two courses would be picked?  That could be another thread, but I don't want to go all Merion on the discussion board here!

[Adam Clayman]

Terry,
 While the WGA is likely comprised of the more sophisticated and well travelled golfer, could you tell us a little of how well the majority adapted to playing Links golf?

Playing off fescue is a bit different than what most Chicagoans (US golfers) are use to. So, I was just curious what aspects do you think were so captivating to golfers who might not have ever experienced this type of golf, before?

[Terry Lavin]

Terry,
 While the WGA is likely comprised of the more sophisticated and well travelled golfer, could you tell us a little of how well the majority adapted to playing Links golf?

Playing off fescue is a bit different than what most Chicagoans (US golfers) are use to. So, I was just curious what aspects do you think were so captivating to golfers who might not have ever experienced this type of golf, before?

We had more than the usual share of the well-traveled golf crowd and I would estimate that more than half had already played the other courses at the resort.  The response from the uninitiated was one of unabashed wonder.  There is a decidedly "extra-continental" feel at Bandon Dunes and the first trip for most is a real eye-opener.  A few people commented on the tight lies from the fescue, but there weren't many complaints about the turf.  We were somewhat lucky in that we had great weather, with minimal wind, especially the day we played Old Mac, so the weather didn't warp anybody's view.  That has happened with a number of friends of mine who are not all that inclined to return because of the severity of the wind when they played.  I think that's a myopic view, but it surely is something that keeps people away.  Just as well.

[Peter Pallotta]

For Peter:

The toughest opener in golf? Oakmont #1

Thanks, George. Good read. Interesting -- and to my point I think -- that so few 1st holes (tough or not) are mentioned or praised. In terms of Oakmont's opening hole, I wouldn't expect anything different from a Pittsburgh golf course!  Good people there, wonderful town to raise a family in, tough as nails when it comes to sports! 

Peter

[Mark Arata]

I'd hazard a guess that very few decent golfers in playing the OM layout will lose a ball. What other modern designs allow that much width off the tee ?

Kevin,

Mr. Nuzzo might have a comment on this.  If not, check out google earth about 14 miles NE of Port Lavaca, TX.  

By the way, I lost a ball on #7 Ocean at Old Mac.  I might've been the first guy to lose a ball out there.  


Only 3 more weeks until I get there, you wont be alone for long........

[Adam Clayman]

We were somewhat lucky in that we had great weather, with minimal wind, especially the day we played Old Mac, so the weather didn't warp anybody's view.  That has happened with a number of friends of mine who are not all that inclined to return because of the severity of the wind when they played.  I think that's a myopic view, but it surely is something that keeps people away.  Just as well.

Terry, This warping jumped off the page at me. It may be worthy of it's own thread. Thanks for your honest comprehensiveness.

[Jud_T]

This is an issue, as is the travel, that seperates the men from the boys.  On the first afternoon we played BD in some very strong winds.  To a man, almost everyone that I had brought along complained about the unfair conditions.  Personally I thought it was a hell of a lot of fun trying to create shots.  However, being the peacemaker that I am, next time I'll probably cave in and try to book the oceanside courses for the early morning rounds as I'd rather avoid the whining from the peanut gallery...

[Tom_Doak]

I remember when we were getting ready to open Pacific Dunes, I spoke in a couple of interviews how the course was designed with the wind in mind, and Mr. Keiser asked me not to talk about the wind, because he thought it scared the retail golfer away.

There is certainly wind in Bandon, but I have yet to play golf there when it was so strong that the golf was no fun.  The courses are all designed for it.

I guess some people would just prefer golf to be an indoor sport.

[Jonathan Cummings]

I won't play OM until next week but from all I've heard....

Tom/Jim - this is going to be one tough act to follow!

JC

[Sean_A]

We were somewhat lucky in that we had great weather, with minimal wind, especially the day we played Old Mac, so the weather didn't warp anybody's view.  That has happened with a number of friends of mine who are not all that inclined to return because of the severity of the wind when they played.  I think that's a myopic view, but it surely is something that keeps people away.  Just as well.

Terry, This warping jumped off the page at me. It may be worthy of it's own thread. Thanks for your honest comprehensiveness.

Yes, I too thought this was a strange line of thinking.  If I ever play a course which the wind seems to make unduly difficult (RE Portrush), my first thought is the course is lacking rather than it being too windy.  It is very rare to play in excessive wind - excessive likely being in the steady 30mph area (not gusting, but steady) - I think a steady 40-45 mph is wind unplayable and no course could be blamed for lack of playability in that weather.  Once the wind is 30ish I can understand there being some issues with most any sea-side course that is interesting enough to play in 10 mph wind.  In my experience, golfers WAY over-estimate the strength of the wind and 20mph is a very strong wind.  

Ciao

[Terry Lavin]

It comes down to personal preference and personal history.  If one doesn't have a history of regularly playing in a windy environment, one's first encounter of Pebble Beach or Bandon Dunes can be quite jarring, if you get a day with winds over 30 m.p.h.  It is truly amazing what can happen to a golf ball with a little side spin in a big wind.  If you're not used to it, the wind can really get inside your head and affect your enjoyment of the golf course.  In the three trips that I've taken to Bandon Dunes, I would say that a decent percentage of my companions come away wondering if they could handle a steady diet of golf atop such a windy bluff.  It can get dispiriting if one doesn't adjust by hitting lower shots and trying to avoid side spin.  Let's face it, the people who come to this site are ardent ground game afficionados, but we are decidedly in the minority here in the States.  When the typical retail golfer in the US talks glowingly about the difficulty in a golf course, he is usually talking length, hazards and green speeds, not the wind.  I try to gently remind my inland golf buddies that they built the fairways wide enough to easily accommodate a 20-25 m.p.h. wind, but it is difficult to get that message across to a golfer who has just been humiliated by the elements.  I'm sure this is mostly an American phenomenon.  I can't imagine the UK golfer getting all that distracted or distressed by the fan!