[TEPaul]

......do you think is still out there left to be solved someday?

I suppose the reputed Raynor routing of Cypress Point may be one of the most illusive and important "assets" still not discovered. What are some of the others that are comparable in importance that could unravel an historical/architectural mystery of real significance?

Whatever they are, who's out there trying to solve some of these things and how are they going about it?

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

If we knew what they were, they'd probably be discovered by now.

North Shore may be a great example of uncovering what was perceived as a historical fact, architecturally, being disproved and corrected with the credit given appropriately.

I suspect that there's a good deal of "North Shore" discoveries out there.

Especially in terms of a project manager or subordinate being given free reign once the architect of record provided the routing.

Establishing the architectural pedigree is often hard to achieve.
Just look at the 8th hole at Hidden Creek and how that came into its final form.

I'll give you another modern day example, in terms of difficulty in deteriming the "feature" author.
Sebonack.
We know that it was Tom Doak's routing.
But, exactly whom did what remains a mystery to most of the outside world, despite the publishing of a contemporary account.

How much "Donald Ross" was actually Hatch, McGovern or Murray ?

More recently, I'd love to know the details on Old Macdonald.

I think you've hit on a great topic.

At Mountain Ridge, a spectacular 1929 Donald Ross, two greens differ significantly from Ross's original schematics and field drawings.
I've heard that Strong redid the 3rd green and Tillinghast the 7th green.
Tillinghast was involved locally in 1931 when he designed and built Alpine, giving credence to his part in an early revision at Mountain Ridge.

The problem with some early (pre WWII) aerial photos is their poor resolution, which in turn makes determining the date of the detailed changes somewhat more difficult.

I am especially interested to attribution on Ross courses since he produced an inordinate number of them and it seems logical that project managers might have had a free hand in alterations/modifications with and without his approval.

I would imagine that courses where he spent little or no time would be especially prone to the revisions of other parties, including the club and possibly other architects.

Like your course, Gulph Mills, many courses are mutts or hybrids, the product of multiple architects, and knowing who did what and WHY is a fascinating study

I can't believe that you thought of this topic on your own.
Did Wayno or Mayday help you on this ?
Or, did you get this idea from me a few years ago and you just remembered it the other day when you fell off your tractor ?

[Jim_Kennedy]

There still is the San Francisco GC attribution that Sean Tully was going to reveal. That ought to be interesting.

[Niall C]

Tom

I think there is a huge amount of information that has simply been forgotten over time but is lying out there somewhere waiting to be discovered. Unfortunately there aren't too many people like (at least some of) those on this site amongst the larger body of golfers who give a toss.

A good example is Neil Crafters quest to find out about all things MacKenzie and one particular thing that I know Neil is looking for and that is MacKenzies rumoured involvement in the Old Course at Troon.

Niall

[Sean Leary]

Don't think it is findable but the question of whether Press Maxwell went off his fathers plans in adding 9 additional holes at Prairie Dunes.

[TEPaul]

"Just look at the 8th hole at Hidden Creek and how that came into its final form."

Patrick:

What about the 8th hole at Hidden Creek? How did that come into its final form?

[Chris_Clouser]

Sean,

That answer has been provided.  Press attempted to do just that on the front nine but had several problems with drainage beyond the dune beyond where the 4th green sits.  Supposedly the 4th hole and 5th tee were to be past that ridge and the third hole would be a combination of the current third and fourth holes.  After those problems prohibited him from following Perry's plans he abandoned them on the back nine because he could not be faithful to them entirely. 

Hope that helps. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

"Just look at the 8th hole at Hidden Creek and how that came into its final form."

Patrick:

What about the 8th hole at Hidden Creek? How did that come into its final form?

TE,

You must recall how Bill Coore said that the concept for the "lion's mouth" type bunker in the middle of the fairway came from an assistant, and how they piled debris at that location to get a feel for how it would look and play they all agreed that it was an idea with a great deal of merit and "Viola" you have the 8th hole as we now know it.

[Mike Cirba]

I'd still like to find out more about who all were involved in the original  design of Seaview, with Hugh Wilson and Wm Robinson and what they did.

Perhaps next winter...

All we know for certain is it wasn't Donald Ross.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom

I think there is a huge amount of information that has simply been forgotten over time but is lying out there somewhere waiting to be discovered. Unfortunately there aren't too many people like (at least some of) those on this site amongst the larger body of golfers who give a toss.

A good example is Neil Crafters quest to find out about all things MacKenzie and one particular thing that I know Neil is looking for and that is MacKenzies rumoured involvement in the Old Course at Troon.

Niall

I agree. I think we are just beginning to scratch the surface, and with people like you, Neil and Joe B digging up all sorts of new info I predict there were will be many surprising discoveries.

[TEPaul]

I agree too, in that there is probably a ton of old information out there coming out of the woodwork these days in the form of newspaper articles particularly.

However, I can't really think of many or even any real instances of where that old information from newspaper accounts has significantly and factually changed the architectural story or architect attribution of a significant course.

We should remember that perhaps the most significant architect attribution change has been North Shore GC and that attribution change did not come from some old newspaper account but from the discovery of the golf club's own old records at the New York Historical Society.

What is or are some examples of old newspaper articles significantly changing a course's or club's architectural story or architect attribution?

On the other hand, there have been some significant architect attribution changes in recent years by the discovery of some old architectural plans some clubs were not aware of. Two of those that Wayne and I were involved in were Concord GC that thought it was a Ross course but the Flynn plans proved it was Flynn. The other was Kittanset that thought it was Hood but the plans proved it was Flynn. Another was Philmont North that thought it was Flynn but Bob Labbance essentially proved it was Willie Park and not Flynn even though Flynn's construction team may've built the course after Park died.

I guess another maybe be Cobbs Creek but with that course it was always assumed Hugh Wilson had a significant amount to do with it.

[Joe Bausch]

I agree too, in that there is probably a ton of old information out there coming out of the woodwork these days in the form of newspaper articles particularly.

However, I can't really think of many or even any real instances of where that old information from newspaper accounts has significantly and factually changed the architectural story or architect attribution of a significant course.

We should remember that perhaps the most significant architect attribution change has been North Shore GC and that attribution change did not come from some old newspaper account but from the discovery of the golf club's own old records at the New York Historical Society.

What is or are some examples of old newspaper articles significantly changing a course's or club's architectural story or architect attribution?

Hmmm, Tom, where would you like me to start?!   

Seaview Bay?
Cobb's Creek (perhaps this isn't significantly changed from the lore)?
Philmont North (and South, too)?
Ashbourne?

Joe
--------------

[TEPaul]

Joe:

I'm not aware who Ashbourne thought designed their course but for years I've been aware of Seaview, Philmont and Cobbs. I think very generally the old newspaper accounts you have been so good in finding help support and confirm the basic architectural and architect attribution story and not deny it or significantly change it.

[Joe Bausch]

Joe:

I'm not aware who Ashbourne thought designed their course but for years I've been aware of Seaview, Philmont and Cobbs. I think very generally the old newspaper accounts you have been so good in finding help support and confirm the basic architectural and architect attribution story and not deny it or significantly change it.

Thanks for updating your original post Tom!   

Ok, Overbrook's club at Lankenau hospital was shown by me to be redone extensively by Flynn.  That was new.

I'm sure I'll come up with others.   

[Mac Plumart]

Royal Blackheath

Royal Calcutta

North Berwick

[Jim_Kennedy]

However, I can't really think of many or even any real instances of where that old information from newspaper accounts has significantly and factually changed the architectural story or architect attribution of a significant course.

The amount of information found in magazine articles and newspaper strories has been an integral part of re-examining the pedigree of certain clubs and courses.

To say they have been insignificant is untrue, shortsighted, agenda driven, and just downright ludicrous.     

[Dan Moore]

I know I'm quite interested in the Harry Colt Donald Ross work at Old Elm in the Chicago area.  Also to what extent Indian Hill is a Colt Ross or Barker design/build.  And the extent to which Colt advised other Chicago area courses including Chicago Golf Club during his visit in April 1913. 

[TEPaul]

"The amount of information found in magazine articles and newspaper strories has been an integral part of re-examining the pedigree of certain clubs and courses.

To say they have been insignificant is untrue, shortsighted, agenda driven, and just downright ludicrous.   "    



Jim Kennedy:

In that case, why don't you cite some significant examples of clubs and courses that have had their architectural or architect attribution stories significantly altered by the discovery of information in newspaper or magazine articles?

Can you do that instead of saying the following?

"To say they have been insignificant is untrue, shortsighted, agenda driven, and just downright ludicrous.   "?

Or perhaps you would just prefer to do what you usually do on here which is to just throw one of your shortsighted, agenda driven, and just downright ludicrous little hisssey fits to this particular post! 

[Tony_Muldoon]

Royal Blackheath

Mac I recently played there with the club's latest historian.  Which course are you reffering to and what questions are you seeking answers to?



NS if you're reading this clearly it's time to email Ran .

[Tony_Muldoon]

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44021.0/  It would be interesting to know more about all his courses.



What was MacKenzie doing at Gleneagles?  Their Centenary is comming up and I hope they do some real digging.  They've produced numerous books over the years and completely missed this one. See his own writing.

[Tom MacWood]

In that case, why don't you cite some significant examples of clubs and courses that have had their architectural or architect attribution stories significantly altered by the discovery of information in newspaper or magazine articles?

TEP
Where have you been? Off the top of my head I can think of quite a few: Merion, Myopia, Ballybunion, Lahinch, San Francisco, Cobbs Creek, Heartwellville, Winding Hollow, Youngstown, White Bear Yacht, Westhampton, Williamsport, CC of Atlantic City, CC of Virginia, Sandy Lodge and Flintridge.

[Bill Brightly]

I always thought Knickerbocker (NJ) was a Ross course. But I just learned from their club champ (as he was kicking my butt in a team match...) that is was Strong!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill Brightly,

Ron Forse recently did a good deal of work there.

I was with Ron recently and there was a brief discussion about Knickerbocker.

Are you sure that Ross didn't do some holes and Strong others.

I seem to recall a discussion about certain holes running north-south and east-west where different architects may have been involved.

[TEPaul]

"TEP
Where have you been? Off the top of my head I can think of quite a few: Merion, Myopia,......

Tom MacWood:

I've been right here.

Just to take your first two, Merion and Myopia have had their architectural and architect attribution stories significantly changed by newspaper articles??  

That sure is off the top of your head pal.

Obviously you don't know much about the facts of the architectural and architect attribution histories of Merion and Myopia for starters! Merion is still Wilson and Committee and Flynn and the club has been fully aware for about a century that Macdonald/Whigam helped and advised in 1910 and 1911 and Myopia is still Herbert Corey Leeds. Westhampton is still Raynor. Heartwellville is still Flynn; but you're right I'm not aware of what's changed with ACCC. I thought it was Reid, Flynn, Doak.  

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
I wrote that, not Jim Kennedy. Rome wasn't built in a day, often the clubs themselves are the last to acknowledge an attribution, there is a lot of emotional attachment to these well established legends. You are Exhibit A for that phenomenon.

By the way, I thought Hartwellville was gone.

Pat/Bill
That is interesting, I had never heard of Strong's involvement at Knickerbocker, though I'm not surprised. I looked to see what Ross mentioned about the Knickerbocker and he did list the course as one of his designs/redesigns in his 1930 pamphlet. I wonder of Strong's involvement was before or after Ross.

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