[Sven Nilsen]

Having received a nomination and a second, we'll proceed with the GCA Tour weekly discussion thread on courses being played on the three major tours (PGA, Champions and European).

This week the old guys are taking a breather, but we have the Players and the BMW Italian Open to take up the slack.

As the home of the Players, TPC Sawgrass needs no introduction.  Played by legions of video game hackers, penal, full of risk/reward and truly a modern, this Pete Dye design is among the most copied courses in the world.  What makes this course great (or not great)?  What has a it borrowed from the past, and what has it added to the golf lexicon?  Would you play it again?  Where did you end up on 17?

Across the pond, the Royal Park Golf and Country Club has two courses, a RTJ Sr. layout as well as a Hurdzan/Fry design.  I'm not sure which one is used for the tour stop, but whatever it is plays to a par of 72 at 7282 yds.  A link to a course description is copied below.  Has anyone played here?  What's the story behind the club?  Will Molinari or Manassero pull an Ishikawa?

http://www.bmwitalianopen.com/en_2010/percorso.php

As an aside, the following quote is from whatsonwhen.com:  "Held at Turin's Royal Park Golf and Country Club, the BMW Italian Open offers more to golfers than financial reward. The top-ten players are automatically selected for the European Team to play against the US in the Ryder Cup."  Any truth to this statement?

[Matthew Petersen]

Many here of course have their issues with many of the holes at Sawgrass, but I really can't think of a course with four better par 5s than Sawgrass has.

2 is a nice risk/reward hole. Probably the easiest of the bunch and planned that way as it comes early in the round.

9 virtually demands three shots and yet still allows many ways of playing it. And what a green!

11 is another great option par 5 and I would be tempted to call it as good as any par 5 except ...

16 is one of the great risk/reward par 5s I have ever seen. It is very reachable but demand two superb shots (and even then, three putts are a possibility on the green). Any player who lays up has a lot of decisions to make with the water right, green mostly sloping away, and sand and encroaching trees on the left.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Having received a nomination and a second, we'll proceed with the GCA Tour weekly discussion thread on courses being played on the three major tours (PGA, Champions and European).

This week the old guys are taking a breather, but we have the Players and the BMW Italian Open to take up the slack.

As the home of the Players, TPC Sawgrass needs no introduction.  Played by legions of video game hackers, penal, full of risk/reward and truly a modern, this Pete Dye design is among the most copied courses in the world.  What makes this course great (or not great)?  What has a it borrowed from the past, and what has it added to the golf lexicon?  Would you play it again?  Where did you end up on 17?

Across the pond, the Royal Park Golf and Country Club has two courses, a RTJ Sr. layout as well as a Hurdzan/Fry design.  I'm not sure which one is used for the tour stop, but whatever it is plays to a par of 72 at 7282 yds.  A link to a course description is copied below.  Has anyone played here?  What's the story behind the club?  Will Molinari or Manassero pull an Ishikawa?

http://www.bmwitalianopen.com/en_2010/percorso.php

As an aside, the following quote is from whatsonwhen.com:  "Held at Turin's Royal Park Golf and Country Club, the BMW Italian Open offers more to golfers than financial reward. The top-ten players are automatically selected for the European Team to play against the US in the Ryder Cup."  Any truth to this statement?

Sven,

It's the RTJ course they will be playing. Here's the link from the European Tour website.

http://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/season=2010/tournamentid=2010024/venue/index.html

I'm 99.9999% sure that last statement about selection to the Ryder Cup team is nonsense.

Dónal.

[Jason Topp]

Interesting Furyk quotes on why TPC Sawgrass produces a wide array of winners on Geoff Shackelford's site:

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2010/5/4/i-think-working-the-ball-off-the-tee-is-an-advantage-here-im.html?

[Jason Topp]

A thread I started on TPC Sawgrass after a visit several years ago  http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,21551.0/

[Matthew Sander]

TPC Sawgrass seems to be an excellent test as it relates to the PGA Tour. You do not see anyone fake it around that course. The players that are playing well from tee to green contend. This is somewhat reflected in Tiger's relative lack of success there. A very large number (I wouldn't necessarily say a majority) of his wins in recent years have come while his tee to green game is marginal at best, and he's repeatedly saved himself with his shortgame, putting and creativity. That formula doesn't seem to work at Sawgrass.

That said, there are countless courses (tour and non-tour courses) that I'd rather go out of my way to play. Sawgrass just doesn't appeal to me for some reason. I coule be absolutely wrong though, and fall in love with it after playing.

[Link Walsh]

Many here of course have their issues with many of the holes at Sawgrass, but I really can't think of a course with four better par 5s than Sawgrass has.

2 is a nice risk/reward hole. Probably the easiest of the bunch and planned that way as it comes early in the round.

9 virtually demands three shots and yet still allows many ways of playing it. And what a green!

11 is another great option par 5 and I would be tempted to call it as good as any par 5 except ...

16 is one of the great risk/reward par 5s I have ever seen. It is very reachable but demand two superb shots (and even then, three putts are a possibility on the green). Any player who lays up has a lot of decisions to make with the water right, green mostly sloping away, and sand and encroaching trees on the left.

That's a good point.  It seems like they all play pivotal roles in the crowning of the champion each year too. 

[Link Walsh]

You know, I like the variety in the par 4s too.  Each side has a short hole that should seem easy on paper (4 and 12), but they can jump up and bite you, especially number 4.  It makes me feel good when the pros are trying to lay up off the tee on 4, miss the fairway, and even occasionally lay up short of the water because the rough is too thick.  Or think about all the balls that you've seen go into the water hazard on that hole over the years.   And then you have the green, which while not conventional in any way, is entertaining to say the least. 

[Matt Langan]

I was just watching Live From The Players (on TGC), and the panel couldn't have been drooling over the course more. I know it is their job to be chearleaders so that more folks will tune in for their broadcasts, but I still felt like they were speaking more from the heart than for their wallets.

Brandel Chamblee (sp?), who I find to be a know-it-all and tough to watch and listen to for more than ten minutes (I feel the same way about Johnny Miller, but that's a whole different thread  ), seemed to especially love the track. He and the other panel members cited the 14th as their favorite hole, but they also were googly-eyed over the obvious ones: the 17th and 18th. I'm barely familiar with the early holes on the course, so I can't make an informed judgement on the course. Why is it that a number of people on GCA detest the TPC's design, while TGC panelists praise Dye so much (assuming its not just the money talking)?

 

[Richard Choi]

What I really like about TPC Sawgrass is that as a "5th major", its venue is so starkly different from the 1st major of the year, ANGC. Sure makes thing interesting in my opinion.

[Sven Nilsen]

This weeks tour stops include the TPC at San Antonio (Dye and Norman), RTJ Golf Trail at Ross Bridge in Birmingham (self explanatory) and Pula Golf Club on Mallorca (redesign by Olazabal). 

It is my understanding that the PGA event is played on the Norman designed course, and that Sergio Garcia had a hand in the process. 

With respect to the RTJ - Ross Bridge stop, please feel free to discuss any of the RTJ Golf Trail courses.

Also, please feel free to add comments on the location of the real event of the weekend, Lost Dunes, home of the Midwest Mashie.

On tap for next week:

TPC Four Seasons Resort, Irving, Texas
Wentworth Club, Surrey, England

[Sven Nilsen]

Bump

[Mike Demetriou]

I know nothing about the TPC track, but re Sergio Garcia's participation in the design, Jason Sobel wrote earlier today (on Twitter):

"Sergio assisted . . . ? Course will be great, then level off. Will also complain about players' good breaks."

[Richard Choi]

TPC San Antonio is a brand new track, yes?

[Ben Sims]

Things to look for this weekend at TPC San Antonio

1)  Length combined with conditioning.  This course has the potential to play very long if the conditions aren't firm.

2)  The 16th green.  Will players bitch about a bunker in the middle of a green that doesn't have pedigree and legacy like Riviera's?

3) Wind.  This joint is up on top if a hill.  If the wind gets up, look for the scores to be double digit higher than the past few years at La Cantera.  

[Sam Morrow]

I heard TPC San Antonio has been dubbed "TPC Impossible."

[Richard Choi]

I heard TPC San Antonio has been dubbed "TPC Impossible."

Does that mean the winner will post 18 under instead of 24 under?

[Sam Morrow]

I heard TPC San Antonio has been dubbed "TPC Impossible."

Does that mean the winner will post 18 under instead of 24 under?

No, I just think more players will bitch about it.

[Wyatt Halliday]

From what I've heard, the event to watch will be the AT&T (Champions Tour) at the Dye course. Some people I've spoken with say it's 5-7 shots harder than the Norman from the racks. If the forecast holds (rain), these guys will rip this place apart which is nothing unusual.

[Tom Yost]

From what I could see from the TV preview of the TPC SA, the bunkering looks MacKenzian. 

[Richard Choi]

The leader is at -6 and the cut line is right now at +1. Seems similar to Quail Hollow scores.

[Wyatt Halliday]

At one point very late today, score average was at 73.6, higher than Bethpage last year. Sorry, I have to run...my crow is ready for consumption.

[PCCraig]

My interest in seeing the course actually got me to watch about 15 min of coverage last night on the Golf Channel (even with the BOS-CLE game on). It certainly looked interesting at first, but after a while it started to look a little goofy. Norman and Sergio make a great team

[Wyatt Halliday]

OK, I saw a little bit of this San Antonio course tonight in the bar at a club I was a guest at, and therefore couldn't make them change the channel.

The bunkering at first looked interesting.  I tapped a pal on the shoulder and said "whoa, look at this course"!

That lasted all of a second and a half.

After that, it looked like somebody took a serrated scissors to all the bunker edges.

It was such a blatant attempt to look natural and irregular that it was patently and obviously fake.

Sorry, that's what I thought....

Who did this course and what was this person thinking?

(PS- this is a board for honest and frank discussion, right?  Sorry if I'm hurting anybody's feelings or whatever, but that's what I thought...if you disagree, please dissuade me of my initial opinion...)

Shivas,

I spoke with an overly enthusiastic member of the golf management staff when the course was under construction. I asked him about the course in general, the bunkering and greens. His direct quote to me was "Norman took careful steps to ensure that the bunker edges resembled the canopy of the surrounding oak trees."

[Sven Nilsen]

Olazabal is commenting on Pula GC and said he didn't really take into account weather conditions in his redesign, specifically he didn't really consider the effects of heavy winds from the opposite of the prevailing direction.  Shouldn't this always be a consideration?

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