1757 - New DC Public Course

[Mike Demetriou]

Just read a short article about a new public course near D.C.  Has anyone played this course yet?

http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/1757-debuts-full-course-in-May/1805/Default.aspx

I'm sure this has been discussed at length here, but I was surprised to read that it closes with a water carrying par-3.

"At 6,623 yards, the par 70 course is not long by modern standards, and, unusually, features a par three closing hole. The 165 yard eighteenth calls for a shot over water to a narrow green."

For my benefit, are there any prominent courses which close in such a fashion?

[Michael Blake]

Mike,

I've only played one course that finishes in a similar fashion.
Not sure about 'prominent.'

Perhaps Mr. Mucci can chime in regarding the hole.

[Bill_McBride]

Just read a short article about a new public course near D.C.  Has anyone played this course yet?

http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/1757-debuts-full-course-in-May/1805/Default.aspx

I'm sure this has been discussed at length here, but I was surprised to read that it closes with a water carrying par-3.

"At 6,623 yards, the par 70 course is not long by modern standards, and, unusually, features a par three closing hole. The 165 yard eighteenth calls for a shot over water to a narrow green."

For my benefit, are there any prominent courses which close in such a fashion?

East Lake
Sandpiper
Congressional Blue (although I guess that's changed........)
Pensacola CC  
Garden City
Pasatiempo (how could I forget?)
Painswick

[Matthew Petersen]

I wouldn't call it prominent, but The Experience at Koele (in Lanai, HI) closes with a short par 3 over water.

[Andrew Lewis]

The Old White at the Greenbrier closes with a short par 3 over water, although I'd argue the horseshoe-shaped mound on the green causes more problems than the pond.

[Matt Langan]

I love a par-3 closer, especially when it is short but difficult like the Old White's (allowing for a 2 or 5).

[mike_beene]

Pastiempo. Also the old Tillie course in San Antonio(name escaping me).

[Jeff Evagues]

I don't know anything about the course but the director of golf - Steve Keating was formally head pro at my course on Long Island and is a good guy.

[Jerry Kluger]

I believe that the course was supposed to be a very expensive and upscale corporate facility that went bankrupt. 

The Blue Course at Congressional finished with a par 3 but the USGA was not happy with that.  Previously they had either not used it at all and instead incorporated some holes from the Gold course or played it as #10 and they had the players double back and play the 10th hole through the 17th.  Not everyone is happy with the new 10th hole from an architectural point of view as well as a routing issue.  The other problem is the famous 17th that Venturi played while dehydrated is now perhaps too short to challenge the top players.  At the last AT@T many of the players were using very short clubs for their second shots. 

[Bob_Huntley]

Pastiempo. Also the old Tillie course in San Antonio(name escaping me).

Pasatiempo has pond? A barranca leading to a hidden ditch, but a pond, I think not.

Bob

[Bill_McBride]

Pastiempo. Also the old Tillie course in San Antonio(name escaping me).

Brackenridge?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Years back I posted a list (obtained from Ron whitten) listing literally hundreds of courses finishing on a par 3. I think 6 of the then top 100 finished with a par 3.

PS - great name for a course!

[Mike Demetriou]

Jeff, I figured that there was such a discussion earlier.  Would you ever design a track that ended in a par three? Or would it be only the result of a land-use requirement, or the result some critical routing decision.  Put differently, is it a good idea?  Having never played a course that ends in a par 3, with a forced carry over water, I'm fascinated by the concept, and the discussion of the merits.

[Rich Brittingham]

The course has had 10 holes open for play for about a year, and is supposed to open the remaining 8 this Thursday.  I think it is  operated by Billy Casper Golf which manages several moderate level courses in the northern Virginia area.  It has a nice driving range and even nicer grass practic facility if your willing to pay $20 a pop for the priviledge.  The clubhouse is very fancy for a (now) public course) as it was designed for corporate use.
I've played the 10 holes there a few times and was mildly impressed.  The course has a mix of tree lined and open holes, and water comes into play on at least half the holes I played, whether its a small creek or man made ponds.  There's even some nice stone walls built into the course which dont necessarily come into play but do show a touch of detail.  The course is primed to operate as a "country club for a day" due to its proximity to the densely populated Ashburn-Dulles suburbs and I've heard green's fees will be in the $100 range. It is located only 10 minutes from Dulles airport so anyone with a few hours to kill on a layover could do worse then checking out their practice facilities.   I have a feeling the holes set to open this week will not be as strong because the original owner had planned on laying out those 8 holes across thre street and during their financial struggles foreclosed on that land.  Thus the remaining holes were routed into existing land and some smaller adjacent properties that were aquired.  I beleive construction had begun on the original 10 holes so they were not directly effected by this redesign.  The par 3 18th hole was certainly part of this redesign, so I woudn't give too much credit (or criticism) to the architect in this instance, as there seemed to be several factors dictating how the course was routed.  #18  runs right up to the clubhouse, backed by a large patio which will surely add to the drama.    I'll be sure to let you know when I have seen the finished product.

[Carl Nichols]

I seem to recall that Rob Waldron is involved with this course -- I think I asked him in an earlier thread what the name meant, but he didn't respond.

[Rich Brittingham]

I seem to recall that Rob Waldron is involved with this course -- I think I asked him in an earlier thread what the name meant, but he didn't respond.

1757 is the year Loudoun County was founded. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jeff, I figured that there was such a discussion earlier.  Would you ever design a track that ended in a par three? Or would it be only the result of a land-use requirement, or the result some critical routing decision.  Put differently, is it a good idea?  Having never played a course that ends in a par 3, with a forced carry over water, I'm fascinated by the concept, and the discussion of the merits.

Hell yeah!  My favorite course as a teenager had a stout, 235 yard par 3.  I always kind of liked it.  In general, the par 3 is just a little easier than long par 4 holes, even with a long shot because the ball is on the tee. Golfers like them better than most holes, and they are easy to make attractive, so I would think that ending a course on a hole golfers like, rather than a "stern test of golf" as would be conventional theory makes a lot of sense to provide a pleasant closing image.

[Bill_McBride]

Pastiempo. Also the old Tillie course in San Antonio(name escaping me).

Pasatiempo has pond? A barranca leading to a hidden ditch, but a pond, I think not.

Bob

I think Mike was just looking for courses that finish with a par 3.

But after reading his post #12, it appears he is looking for par 3s with forced carry over water as #18.

[Mike Demetriou]

Bill, yes, or something to that effect. I guess I was just surprised by the notion of creating a forced carry par 3 for an 18th hole. It doesn't seem very classic, or traditional at all. Notwithstanding that, I think it would be a lot of fun.  I guess it wouldn't matter if it were water, or a chasm, ravine, barranca, etc., but the notion of little chance at recovery for an errant shot on a par three 18th is sort of a cool way to end a match in my book. I say that, having never played one!

[Tommy Williamsen]

Unfortunately I know more than I remember and may even be a little confused.  Rob Waldron is indeed involved through Billy Casper Golf.  It was supposed to be a high end private club called the Presidential.  It went belly up and BC Golf took over.  I will emaii Rob and he can give you the whole story.

[mike_beene]

The San Antone course I was thinking about is not a forced carry and not Brackenridge.Both 9 and 18 are par3s,it hosts senior tour and has Oak somewhere in the name.I just got back from Oak Tree so I have Oak on the brain.

[Carl Nichols]

I believe that the course was supposed to be a very expensive and upscale corporate facility that went bankrupt. 

The Blue Course at Congressional finished with a par 3 but the USGA was not happy with that.  Previously they had either not used it at all and instead incorporated some holes from the Gold course or played it as #10 and they had the players double back and play the 10th hole through the 17th.  Not everyone is happy with the new 10th hole from an architectural point of view as well as a routing issue.  The other problem is the famous 17th that Venturi played while dehydrated is now perhaps too short to challenge the top players.  At the last AT@T many of the players were using very short clubs for their second shots. 

The 2nd course at Congressional (the Gold course) currently finishes with a par 3 with a carry (over a different part of the same small lake that these others holes play over/next to).  So until the recent change to the Blue course, both courses at Congressional finished with par 3's over water . . . can't think of any other 36-hole facilities like that.

[Matthew Petersen]

Looking at the planned routing for this course on their website (http://www.1757golfclub.com/The-Golf-Course_955e.html) and it's ... interesting.

Appears they had to squeeze a lot of golf onto not much land. The distance between 9 green and 10 tee is startling. Seems like a long trip between 16 and 17, as well.

[Sean_A]

Just read a short article about a new public course near D.C.  Has anyone played this course yet?

http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/1757-debuts-full-course-in-May/1805/Default.aspx

I'm sure this has been discussed at length here, but I was surprised to read that it closes with a water carrying par-3.

"At 6,623 yards, the par 70 course is not long by modern standards, and, unusually, features a par three closing hole. The 165 yard eighteenth calls for a shot over water to a narrow green."

For my benefit, are there any prominent courses which close in such a fashion?

East Lake
Sandpiper
Congressional Blue (although I guess that's changed........)
Pensacola CC  
Garden City
Pasatiempo (how could I forget?)
Painswick

Ace

Either

A) I need glasses

OR

B) A pond was removed

Which is it at Painswick? 

Ciao

[J Sadowsky]

I believe that the course was supposed to be a very expensive and upscale corporate facility that went bankrupt.  

The Blue Course at Congressional finished with a par 3 but the USGA was not happy with that.  Previously they had either not used it at all and instead incorporated some holes from the Gold course or played it as #10 and they had the players double back and play the 10th hole through the 17th.  Not everyone is happy with the new 10th hole from an architectural point of view as well as a routing issue.  The other problem is the famous 17th that Venturi played while dehydrated is now perhaps too short to challenge the top players.  At the last AT@T many of the players were using very short clubs for their second shots.  

The 2nd course at Congressional (the Gold course) currently finishes with a par 3 with a carry (over a different part of the same small lake that these others holes play over/next to).  So until the recent change to the Blue course, both courses at Congressional finished with par 3's over water . . . can't think of any other 36-hole facilities like that.

Another problem with the 10th hole is that for those who play only or start on the back 9, you lead off with a long Par 3 over water.  OUCH.

As an aside, does anyone know what the greens fees for 1757 will be?  Their website only lists the greens fees for playing the 10 holes that were originally done.  [EDIT:  Nevermind, I now see this on another story about the club:

1757 Golf Club is just outside Dulles Airport, adjacent to Dulles 28 Centre and on Waxpool Road off Route 28. Greens fees (including cart rental) are:
* Monday – Thursday: $65 before 2 p.m., $55 after 2 p.m. and $39 after 4 p.m. $49 for seniors all day.
* Friday – Sunday and holidays: $95 before 2 p.m., $65 after 2 p.m. and $49 after 4 p.m.]

Sigh.  Being a DC golfer without a private club just sucks.  There's no course for 40 miles that isn't a guaranteed 6 hour round for under $60 weekends, almost all public courses make you use carts on weekends, and even the $100 daily fees - of which there seem to be too many - are at least 4 hour rounds.