The Greenbrier's Old White

[TEPaul]

Who out there knows the course relatively well and/or its history?

For those who do----what do you think, recently and otherwise, like in the last fifty years or even in the last eight years or one year?

This one might be a CBM project that's a bit mysterious, or at least not generally all that well known. Who can explain or offer information on why he got involved?

What was CBM's connection to or at the Greenbrier?

[Anthony Gray]

   Old White....White Day.....See the connection?


    Anthony

[Jim Franklin]

I have played Old White nearly every year since 1989 and I love it. The opening tee shot is one of if not my favorite in golf. I think the restoration Lester George has done over the past few years is terrific. I am going back at the end of June and can't wait to see it again. As to why CBM took part, I have no idea, but am glad he did. The Greenbrier is a wonderful destination and I am very happy they have a new owner.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Tom,

There might be some info in this thread, which restoration architect Lester George responded to:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=1v31oeuokch7qpf3smnbbg3kl2&topic=15897.0

[JC Jones]

I spent the last few days at the Greenbrier with a bunch of people; an author, the consulting architect and team, the Greenbrier's long-time historian, the Greenbrier's long time professional, the long time superintendent and staff, and even the new owner (briefly).

Who out there knows the course relatively well and/or its history?

For those who do----what do you think, recently and otherwise, like in the last fifty years or even in the last eight years or one year?

This one might be a CBM project that's a bit mysterious, or at least not generally all that well known. Who can explain or offer information on why he got involved?

What was CBM's connection to or at the Greenbrier?

Seems to me if you spent the weekend with the people you said you did, you might have the answer to some of these questions.  Please enlighten us as I am very curious to hear the answers.  I've been fascinated with the Greenbrier (though I've not been there) for quite some time.

[TEPaul]

JC:

I suppose I have some but I'm always looking for more someone else out there might have. In this particular case any old newspaper or magazine accounts would be great that may not be part of the Greenbrier archive; and they certainly do not have to be just on golf course architecture or the Old White course. At the moment I'm trying to look into the connection of some of the people connected to the Greenbrier back then with other projects Macdonald (Raynor) got involved in over the years.

[Tim Gavrich]

TEPaul--

I've only played the golf course once so I haven't much in the way of new information on the history of the design of the coure, but I (and many others, I am sure) would love to hear of any interesting information you gleaned from your recent visit.  Perhaps it will jog someone else's memory about the place and lead to some of what you're looking for.

Cheers.

[TEPaul]

Tim:

To do a really comprehensive design evolution report tracking the architecture of Old White from beginning until to date I guess the usual problems are present with incomplete so-called "assets."

Lester and company have been involved here since I think around 2002, and he feels he has pretty much everything that's out there to use to analyze and do a restoration of the original course. But like most courses there are some very distinct gaps in information at certain times of the course evolution.

The project is pretty much complete now and as I suppose most know there is a ton of scrambling going on right now both with the hotel (and a new underground casino) and the finishing touches to the course to get ready for the new PGA Tour stop at the Greenbrier (The Greenbrier Classic which is part of the Fed-Ex year long rota) which is fast approaching on July 26 to August 1, 2010.

It is also right around the annual date (early May, 2009) that the new owner, Jim Justice, took over the entire Greenbrier out of the CSX (the former Cheseapeake and Ohio RR) bankruptcy.

I'd never been to the Greenbrier before (Wayne and I were involved in a restoration plan that pretty much involved bunkers at The Homestead that isn't far away) and so to say the size and extent of that entire operation and what they are trying to accomplish there now is pretty awe-inspiring is an understatment to me. The facility is absolutely enormous and I'm told the entire land size of the place is something like six and a half thousand acres.

To me it just so congers up another time and era that many probably feel is gone with the wind and with time and tide now but apparently not with the Greenbrier. Mr. Justice's vision is definitely grand scale, to put it mildly, and The Greenbrier feels to me something akin to a small country and a world and ethos of grandeur from the past.

But back to the Old White and its beginning with Macdonald/Raynor in 1913. From just doing some recent background on the place back then and Macdonald it looks to me like the primary connection was two men by the names of Frederick Sterry and Ben Beinieke.

Those two guys with another man by the name of Harry Black (Fuller Construction Co) basically created the New York famous landmark known as The Plaza Hotel in 1907. But the Plaza was more than just a New York hotel of world class accommodations, it was also a hotel operating company that seems to have run a hotel in Palm Beach, and it built the Copley Plaza in Boston. It also seems to have operated The Greenbriar right around this time and maybe for years.

The Greenbrier records show it was Frederick Sterry who called on Macdonald to look at Greenbrier for a new course and Macdonald initially answered that call by sending Raynor down to check it out as well at the old Findlay course there that wasn't doing well agronomically or otherwise.

But here's the connection. Just the other day while looking into something else entirely I came across an old copy of what was known at The Blue Book. It's a New York in-town listing of all the social and business bigwigs from the old days----eg a more area specific registry than the more famous Social Register. I just happened to notice Mr. and Mrs C.B Macdonald in it. But the really interesting thing was their New York City address. It was The Plaza Hotel!!

I asked GeorgeB if he was aware that Mr and Mrs Macdonald lived at The Plaza Hotel and he said he wasn't since they also had places in Roslyn, Southampton and Bermuda.

By the way, the Beinieke family has always been an enormous financial supporter of Yale and particularly the Yale golf course.

And then there's the railroad financier connection that also involves The Greenbrier and probably Macdonald too. More on that later if you're interested because that will probably also connect in various ways to his involvement with The Creek, Piping Rock, The Links and even The Lido.

 

[Tim Gavrich]

Tom--

Thanks for all that information.  I could not agree with you more about the old-world feeling one gets upon entering the grounds of the Greenbrier.  I have only played the Old White once--last October, though I took a cart around it to see the new tee boxes and such--and it is a gem of a golf course and one of the most pleasant walks I've found.  The Greenbrier and Meadows courses, while not on the same level as Old White, are quite nice as well.  And since Jim Justice is putting so much money into the place now, the resort should quickly regain any luster it might have lost over the last few years.  Seeing as it's only an hour away from Washington and Lee and the folks there are so kind to the golf team, we are able to practice and play out there on occasion.  Every trip to White Sulphur Springs is a special one, for sure.

The same historically goes for the Homestead as well.  They also have been very kind to let us play out there at times.  It too is about an hour away from school and I have had the good fortune to play the Cascades course (also last October).  I may be going there with a couple teammates this week, which is quite exciting.

Cheers.

[Joe Bausch]

This is all I currently have on Greenbrier Tom.

[Joe Bausch]

And this one from 1914 that mentions Mrs. C.B. Macdonald and other guests.

[Wade Whitehead]

I don't know any more about the history of the Old White than what's been posted here.  I have, however, played the golf course a good number of times, what with it being fairly close to Roanoke and all.

The PGA Tour now has a new best (by far) opening hole.  Even with the removal of an important tree down the right side, it presents one of the most beguiling first shots in the game.

I've always been intrigued by the putting surfaces, beginning with the second.  The front left portion of that green fascinates me, though I'm sure it's overlooked by most folks on most days.

Tim mentions the timelessness of the place; between Lester's genius restoration and the occasional horse-drawn carriage that meanders by, it's easy to forget what half-century one is even in.

My favorite hole, though, is the eighteenth.  If the Tour is brave enough to pin it where they should, they'll see scores between 1 and 7 on Sunday afternoon alone.

Lester George, chime in!

WW

[TEPaul]

Joe:

Thanks for those articles in the New York Sun of 1914 and 1915 mentioning Mrs Macdonald and other prominents of the time from other places. If the Greenbrier historian is not aware of those I'll tell him to take the info off of here. The massive hotel was essentially remodeled in 1913 into pretty much what it is today.

[Matt Langan]

Tom, that information was priceless.

About two weeks ago, I went to the Greenbrier to play The Greenbrier course, and get some practice in (I am a senior golfer at Washington and Lee). Each and every time I make the trip I am blown away by how kind their staff is, and by the classical beauty of the facilities and the surrounding area. They are still VERY busy with construction. In fact, I am going to be extremely impressed if all of the work is finished, the equipment is moved out, and the dust is settled by the time the Tour event rolls around.  Based on my fleeting glances, it seemed as though there was extensive work being done to the main building (near the tunnel - that's where the casino will be), as well as to the outskirts of the building that houses the pro shop and the locker rooms. There was a large wooden wall encapsulating an area that a bunch of construction workers appeared to be working behind. This was off the left wing of the building with the pro shop. I forgot to ask what was being done. Does anyone know? If not, I can ask them when I make a trip there either this week or next week.

The Old White appeared to be in great shape, although I didn't get a really close look. The conditions at the Greenbrier course were generally good, but a bit disappointing. The tees, fairways, rough, and bunkers were nicely tended to, but the greens were bumpy and slow for a high-calibre course (I hear they had recently punched them). Still, the experience was great (as always). In fact, as I was making my way to the twelfth tee box a couple weeks back, I remember telling my friend who I was playing with that if life ever gets really tough, I am just going to jump in my car and head straight to the Homestead or the Greenbrier because playing golf there is a guaranteed perfect day!


I agree, Whitehead. The 18th is one of my favorite holes on the course, but it will only reach its true greatness if the tournament committee isn't scared to put the pin just short or just beyond the ridge in that green. If they do that, I think the Greenbrier Classic (with a Par 5, Par 3 finish and a dramatic closing green) will become an instant fan favorite. That finish almost guarantees either carnage or heroic acts.


Is there a thread on GCA that chronicles all of the changes that Lester has made to the course? I am new to GCA, so I apologize if this was a recent discussion. I hope to be there come late July. PM me if you are trying to do the same. I would grealty like to meet up with a fellow GCAer who would appreciate the players' games as much as the track they are walking on.

[Bill Brightly]

Great thread!  And thanks fo Sott or digging up the old 2004 thread with restoation photos and comments from the archy, Lester George.

[TEPaul]

Matt Langan:

I think the pin placements for the PGA Tour tournament are already picked or at least Lester thought so (by the way, when we were out there on one of the days the Tour guys came by including Uber-PGA Tour official Slugger White of recent Hilton Head final hole ruling notoriety with runner-up Davis).  On the Par 3 18th the pins will be---front, left next to the end of the ridge and straight behind the ridge and then right side behind the ridge. We actually putted to them even if the course is still closed and may not open until June or even July.

To me the real genius of what Lester has done there is some of the examples of using top lines of bunkers to create shades of visual deception. For instance that big bunker half way across #5 hides up to 80 yards of faiway to the creek behind it and #6 is even cooler with the top line of that fairway bunker that looks from the tee to be right up against the front of the green even though there's actually 150 yards of fairway behind it and on up to the green. #4 also has some great visually deceptive elements at and around the green.

Lester is also very proud of the 14th (The Narrows). It too is visually deceptive and multi optional. Lester suspects it and is resistant to it at the moment and he probably doesn't know it yet but when I get through with him and that hole via recommending taking down trees along the creek on the left thereby exposing the creek and the green way over on the left in-line with the creek and providing a bit more fairway for a really long heroic tee shot way down the left side clear over an acre of long grass that particular hole is going to take its place as one of the neatest super multi-optional holes on the planet. Lester doesn't have to name the hole after me but he will thank me for taking it that last added option mile!  

I also recommended extending the green to the right on the next hole---the 15th Eden to mimic the actual Eden hole and to really bring the creek into play on the tee shot particularly for a PGA Tour event. Lester offered some lame excuse such as that would make the next tee too vulnerable or the crew might pin right by mistake or some other such pathetic logic and excuse. I explained to him that the pin right on the Eden could be used at only limited times but he wouldn't buy that logic either.

After a while he turned to the other guy we were out there with and said: "Is there any way to shut this guy up?" The other guy just said: "No Lester, there's no way at all to shut him up other than to just go ahead and take his advice."  

The other good news for Lester with me and my advice and help is I told him that seeing as how historic this place is, it made me feel like I was from the old days and so I told him I was feeling like one of those "amateur/sportsmen" from the old days, sort of like the ultra "amateur/sportsman" architect, Charles Blair Macdonald, who never took a nickel for anything he ever did in architecture and so Lester would never have to consider paying me for my help and advice which will take a few of the holes out there to that last step towards perfection.

[Matt Langan]

TEPaul:

I cannot wait to get out there and see the changes that he has made. I may drive over there and ask to see if I can walk to course and snap a few pictures for fellow GCAers to get a sneak peak of the progress that has been made. I'm pretty excited to hear about those pin positions, although I kind of wish they would have planned to put Sunday's pin right in front of or behind the ridge. Wouldn't that make for an easier ace? Winning with an ace would be pretty gosh darn godly. Unfortunately someone named Tiger may do something spectacular like that...

I think I would have to kindly disagree with you in regards to your suggested improvement on 15. I think that it certainly would make the hole a bit more intimidating and therefore more difficult, but one aspect that I really love about the hole (when I played it last year) was its symmetrical appearance. By moving the tee, you would be skewing the symmetry, which I find charming and more suitable to the classical feel of the course, resort, and the surrounding environment. For that reason, I think I would lean towards voting for the teest to remain as is.

With regards to your suggestion on 14, I couldn't agree more. Wow, that would be an absolutely fantastic idea. I've always thought that courses should give golfers few significant risk/reward opportunities until sometime in the middle of the closing nine. By creating these opportunities at this point in the course, a course slowly shifts into another gear, which tests not only a leader's skill level, but his/her ability to also strategically navigate a course successfully. Introducing this design element at that point in the track would make a golfer have to really use his/her noodle before pulling the trigger. Still, if that change isn't made, 14 would still have to be one of my favorite holes on the course.

I am really interested to see what's been done to 17 (if anything). I hope length has been added to it. I've only played the course once, and I finished eagle-birdie. Although I loved diving into red figures on the last two holes, I think that if 17 weren't changed come July, the PGA pros would just destroy it.

[cary lichtenstein]

I thought it was a hidden low key gem

[Matt Langan]

I thought it was a hidden low key gem

Can you be more specific? The course itself or a certain hole? Did you see potential? What about it didn't you like?

[ChipOat]

I did a thread in early 2002 or 2003 saying that I thought the Old White was pretty diluted Macdonald.  There have been other threads since then that suggest Lester George's work has, at least, made the Redan hole more challenging.  Also, the Short Hole may have been resurrected from blah-ness.  I hope that's true.  Cape, Alps and Punchbowl are pretty weak examples of the same holes at other Mac courses.

Anyway, everybody's been giving kudo's to LG for several years now so I'm sure the place has been made more true to form.

[TEPaul]

Cape, Alps and Punchbowl are pretty weak examples of the same holes at other Mac courses.

"Anyway, everybody's been giving kudo's to LG for several years now so I'm sure the place has been made more true to form."

Chip Oat:

Who has been giving kudos to LG for several years implying the place has been made more true to form by him?

True to the form of what? Of Macdonald/Raynor in the teens? No one is that sure now of what that golf course really was back then, including Lester. It seems the best source of info is from something like a 1929 aerial. But the question is are many of the holes that have been done by Lester good and interesting? Are the holes named or attributed as Cape, Alps, Punchbow et al close to the originals or protypes? Not even close in some cases; but does Lester acknowledge and admit that? I think he most certainly does and the final question is---is that even the point or are those holes good holes because of the basic priniciples behind those prototypes that Lester has tried to use?

That too is a good question and I feel an intelligent architectural analyst should consider if prototype attribution is even relevent, or is the quality of the hole in and of its own the only point?

[TEPaul]

Matt Langan:

Maybe it would be worthwhile to mention or discuss various aspects of certain holes.

I'll start with Old White's Biarritz hole (#3).

I think it is particularly interesting in how Lester (I suppose) did the distances (in-line footage) of the front green section, the swale and the back green section. Each one is approximately 23 to 24 paces in distance and obviously this makes for quite the interesting conceptual and strategic workup depending on where the pin is. This is different compared to many of the other Biarritzes who even if they have deep swales they are not very long distance-wise inline. In that particular ramification the Old White's Biarritz may be quite close to the way The Lido's original Biarritz once was.

The Old White's Biarritz is on a pretty bland piece of the property (in my opinion Biarritzes can work really well on flat and bland topography) and I have a feeling Lester might want to visit Piping Rock's Biarritz (the first one Macdonald/Raynor did in America) for a bit more architectural inspiration such as the perpindicular bunker not far off the tee and considerably removed from the front of the green as well as perhaps the interesting and prominent perpindicular berm behind the green.

[Matt Langan]

Thanks TEPaul. I really enjoyed the third hole the last time I played it (despite hitting into the recessed area when the pin was up front). Dope!

[Greg Tallman]

Sorry but a question for Lester...

In looking the The Greenbrier website it appears that the left green at teh 16th has been removed and the current green, if not in the spot of the "right green" it is close to that location.

Can you discuss what happened here as I always hated playing the right green and actually do not recall that we ever did in competition. What is the scoop?

[Lester George]

Great discussion guys.  Tom Paul will have to keep being the amateur architect and receive no monetary compensation for his input.  It was fun having him see the place for the first time although, as you all know, he gets hung up on things every now and then starts helping out alot!  Really, he made good observations about the Old White. 

The one thing that matters most is that we did reconstruct as many holes as practicable by using the 1929(?) aerial photo.  That was always our guiding light.  Whether the holes are the "strongest examples" is not important to me.  The important thing to me is that we replicated at least 13 "template" holes as they were when Raynor left there.  We recreated the holes as closely as possible and in fact modified where we thought it would give character.  All I know is I would stack this restoration up against most and the Greenbrier is extremely happy with the result.

The answer about the 16th green is pretty simple.  I put the green back where it was originally (on ther right) to reinstate a reasonable Cape hole that was lost.  The green across the creek was added some time after 1970 I believe as a "more interesting" two shotter (not in my opinion) by others.  The Howard Creek Lodge was built there when I removed the green.

Not sure the Tour will place the pins in all the right places, but I am interested to see how it goes. 

Lester 

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