[Patrick_Mucci]

1/2 shot to a full shot effect on your score ?

Prior to its removal, when the hole location was in the back left bowl on # 1 at NGLA I think the hole played a half shot to a full shot harder.

In reverse order the same might be said for # 15, # 12, # 11, # 8, # 6 and # 3 at NGLA.

Mountain Ridge's greens present a similar opportunity to influence scoring on holes # 1, # 4, # 6, # 8, # 11, # 12 and # 17.

Pine Valley has its share of greens where hole location can influence scoring by a half shot to a full shot.

Ditto Oakmont.

TOC ?

Is this the mark of good to great architecture ?

Is this a tribute to variety in design and play ?

Do great courses have at least six holes where hole location has a half shot to a full shot influence on scoring ?

Doesn't that mean that the design must inherently have large greens ?

What other courses have at least six greens where hole location is worth a half shot to a full shot ?
Please identify the holes.

 

[Phil McDade]

Pat:

I can think of at least six holes at Lawsonia where this is the case: #s 4, 6, 7, 10, 12, and 17. There may be more.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37022.0/

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Your question is a very good one and one we sometimes call "greens within a green." To me that inherently means if one is in the wrong part of a green to the day's hole location a two putt or at least getting near the hole location is pretty much not considered to be an expectation. Of course we may have to identify and explain what "near" a hole location means in terms of feet or whatever.

To me if it is basically a physical impossiblity to get within about 15-20 feet or more of a particular hole location you have the makings of "greens within a green."

To me this also presents highly strategic ramifications.

[JC Jones]

Pat,

What about #'s 3, 4, 6, 11, 13 and 16 at Seminole?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Phil,

I've heard nothing but rave reviews about Lawsonia.
I'm going to have to get there one day.

JC

I don't see hole location on # 4 and # 16 at Seminole resulting in a half shot to a full shot difference.

TEPaul,

You carefully examined the putting surfaces when you were at Mountain Ridge, what did you think ?

[Tim Gavrich]

How about #9 at Yale?  Heck, how about #10 at Yale?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim,

I think you can probably say that about every Biarritz hole/green.

The back tier/shelf is probably a half to a full shot harder than the valley or front tier/shelf.

I'd question # 10 having the scoring disparity

[Scott Szabo]

Pat,

Without going into too much detail, we had fairly benign pins at Ballyneal on Saturday, much more difficult on Sunday.  Added quite a bit to the scoring difficulty.  Every hole at Ballyneal could possibly fit your definition, although I'm sure you're looking for much more specific than that.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott,

Hole locations can certainly affect play, but, in some cases it's dramatic and readily discernable.

It's the readily discernable holes/greens I'm looking for.

A far back hole location on # 1 at PV can have a dramatic effect on scoring.
Who dares fly it at that pin ?
Go left or right and it's at least a stroke.
Play safe and Go short and it's probably a half a stroke

# 2, # 12, # 13 and maybe # 16 at PV might have the same degree of influence.

So, I'm looking for holes or more importantly a collection of at least six holes where the impact on scoring is dramatic, to the tune of a full stroke or half stroke.

As I reflect on the issue, angled greens tend to spring to mind, like the 12th at PV.
There, a front hole location versus a back hole location can produce a substantive scoring difference.

[Link Walsh]

How about Augusta National?

1-  back pin is toughest and can lead to more big numbers

3-  back pin is easier/ front left harder

6-  back right pin on shelf.  This hole killed Tiger this year if I'm not mistaken.

9- anything towards the front brings biggest false front ever into play

11- back left still scares the pros

12- kind of obvious there

13- depending on whether the pin is on top of or below the shelf (I think this hole epitomizes the thread best because pin placement comes into the decision process for both the second and/ or third shot- I love seeing when the pros have to lay up, and then don't get their third up the slope for a legitimate chance of birdie for fear or going over).

14- right pin is death.  Center back can be holed (ask Mickleson), plus you have the ridge over there on the left.  That green is awesome.

16-  on top of the shelf versus below, front versus back brings major changes in scoring and strategy.

[Michael Moore]

What other courses have at least six greens where hole location is worth a half shot to a full shot ?

Compared to what?

[JESII]

Michael,

I think the spread between the tough pins and easy pins on a particular hole.

HVCC has a couple I'd put in there (probably not 6), but the interesting thing about the question seems to be a generally easy hole off the tee and to hit the green seems a prerequisite, then a tough green.

Although...now that I say that I think of #5 at Pine Valley. A clear and easy par 4 to a front pin, and a challenging par 5 with the pin up top...and now thinking more, #3 fits when talking about front left (easy, catchers mit) versus back left.

[Keith Phillips]

Most of the greens at Montclair Golf Club are challenging regardless of the hole locations - a couple pin positions that are at lease a half stroke harder than the easiest positions on the greens are:

 - back center on 7 of 2
 - back left or right on 4 of 3

[Tom_Doak]

Pat:

I do that all the time when building golf courses.  Since Ballyneal was used as an example, I'll go there:

hole 2 - back right 1/2 shot harder
hole 5 - front left 1/2 shot harder
hole 6 - right side at least 1/2 shot harder
hole 7 - back pin 1/2 shot harder
hole 8 - back right pin 1/2 shot harder
hole 12 - right side 1/2 shot harder
hole 13 - right side 1/2 shot harder
hole 15 - left pin 1/2 shot harder

There are probably others but those are the main ones.  I'd guess most of my courses have at least 3-4 examples.

However, I don't think this is the be-all, end-all of architecture.  The one thing I remember most about my lunch with Mr. Wind long ago was him saying that this aspect of design was overrated, and that for him, a hole only deserved to be called great if it was great with the hole cut right in the middle of the green.

[JC Jones]

JC

I don't see hole location on # 4 and # 16 at Seminole resulting in a half shot to a full shot difference.

Why not?  Given the length of #4, I think a back pin is easily a 1/2 shot harder.  And, depending on what club you hit off of 16 tee, I think the back left can be a 1/2 shot harder, simply because that green is tough to 2 putt.

[PCCraig]

#4 at Lost Dunes is probably a full stroke harder from a back pin on the shelf vs. a front pin on the fat part of the green.

Phil:

I 100% agree that Lawsonia has some holes that would qualify, #6 being the biggest possibility with a pin on the left side (or on the top of the plataeu).

Not sure about #4 or #10 as I tend to think the longer your approach shot the less it matters where the pin is. For example, on #10 most players are holding a 3-wood or sometimes Driver and are just looking to put it on the green to leave themselves a putt.

[Brent Hutto]

Nobody will know the green I'm talking about but the second hole at my club is very much that way with the exception being anyone who can drive the ball far enough (say 290-ish off the tournament tees) to be hitting a sand wedge in. Deep green (28 yards maybe?) angled toward the golfer's right at the back of the green. About a 2-3 foot rise crosses the green at 3/4 of its depth and the back shelf then slopes slightly away (meaning a shot that lands up on top wants to pitch toward the back if it isn't spinning hard) and slopes substantially left to right. Then a six-foot drop-off into rough and then pine straw over the green. Bunker up the entire right side of the green and another bunker long and left.

With the hole near the front of the green the hole plays about 360 yards from my tees and well under 400 from the tips. Slight false front but other than that a flat putt with the bunkers out of play and a 15 yard wide landing area. Not the easiest Par 4 on the course but not hard. But the flag on the back shelf and it plays 380+ for me and 425 from the tips to an unreceptive tilt toward trouble long. Coming in from the right rough you'll have to carry the bunker and may not be able to stop it on the green, coming in from the fairway or left rough you can either play safe to the front or try to bang it into the ridge.

I'm a bogey golfer and it probably plays to an average of about 4.8 stroke for me when on the front (maybe less in summer time when the weather shortens the hole for me) and at least 5.5 strokes when on the back. For a scratch golfer who isn't long enough to hit a sand wedge approach it's probably 3.8 on the front and 4.2 on the back or something like that. If you can drive it in the fairway 100 yards from the green it is pretty easy no matter what although a bad approach shot is more costly when it's on the back.

[Dan Herrmann]

Patrick,
Gil Hanse built a number of greens at French Creek that fit your description perfectly.  He's a real artist, and built some wonderful hole locations that would drive one nuts if used often.  They're typically on a small plateau and often near an edge.

In my opinion, they add awesome variety and make for a wonderful member's course.

I think the holes at French Creek where you have a 1/2 shot difference based on the hole location are 2, 3, 6, 8, 10, 13, 15, and 18 - each of which can have easy locations - or not.

Best thing about Gil's work is that you need to be in the correct location in the fairway to get to some of these locations.  Of course, he makes it tough there too, sometimes locating a bunker near the ideal landing area.  I think it's genius, but I'm not exactly an impartial judge

[Patrick_Mucci]

Most of the greens at Montclair Golf Club are challenging regardless of the hole locations - a couple pin positions that are at lease a half stroke harder than the easiest positions on the greens are:

 - back center on 7 of 2
 - back left or right on 4 of 3

Keith,

What about back left on 3 of 4 versus front right, back left on 4 of 4 versus front right. ?
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[Patrick_Mucci]

JC

I don't see hole location on # 4 and # 16 at Seminole resulting in a half shot to a full shot difference.

Why not?  Given the length of #4, I think a back pin is easily a 1/2 shot harder. 

Because there's little if any change in the approach to that green no matter where the hole is located and it's a relatively benign green to putt once you reach the putting surface.

And, depending on what club you hit off of 16 tee, I think the back left can be a 1/2 shot harder, simply because that green is tough to 2 putt.
With a back left hole location you're putting uphill and your approach to the green is a center approach.

You can't be long on certain holes at Seminole and # 16 is one of them, thus, the approach is to the center if the holes are cut to the back.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:

I do that all the time when building golf courses.  Since Ballyneal was used as an example, I'll go there:

hole 2 - back right 1/2 shot harder
hole 5 - front left 1/2 shot harder
hole 6 - right side at least 1/2 shot harder
hole 7 - back pin 1/2 shot harder
hole 8 - back right pin 1/2 shot harder
hole 12 - right side 1/2 shot harder
hole 13 - right side 1/2 shot harder
hole 15 - left pin 1/2 shot harder

There are probably others but those are the main ones.  I'd guess most of my courses have at least 3-4 examples.
Tom,

Don't you feel that this gives your courses/holes great diversity/variety as opposed to monotony in terms of play ?

However, I don't think this is the be-all, end-all of architecture.  

I don't think anyone claimed it was.

The one thing I remember most about my lunch with Mr. Wind long ago was him saying that this aspect of design was overrated, and that for him, a hole only deserved to be called great if it was great with the hole cut right in the middle of the green.

That's an interesting criterion, I wonder how many holes meet that standard ?

It almost implies that the configuration of the green is diminished or irrelevant, doesn't it ?

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