A neat and deceptive feature ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

I played a course recently that had a slightly uphill, reachable par 5.

As you stand in the fairway DZ looking at the green and contemplating going for it, a little doubt creeps into your mind due to the enormous, deep bunker fronting the green.

While the green is only about 250-200 as you stand in the DZ, that gaping bunker clearly tells you not to miss the shot, otherwise a bogey or worse can be your fate.

When you get to the green, you realize that the bunker is a good 30 yards short of the green and NOT cut into the front of the green.

But, when you're back in the fairway, and you know the yardage, the thought of a mishit adds tension to your approach shot.

After playing the hole once, and knowing the juxtapositon of the bunker to the green, that bunker still represents a physical and mental hazard due to its expansive presence.

It's a matter of your vision overriding your confidence.

What other courses/holes have this feature ?

How much did it affect your play ?

[JC Jones]

The new #1 at Carolina Golf Club has a similar feature and I think it works quite well.  I remember commenting to Ed Oden about it at the time. 

Though on a par 3, there is a bunker about 30ish yards short on #7 at Calusa Pines.  I remarked to the pro, Mike, that I thought it too was a great feature.

I'm not sure why I love this feature so much but the bunker that looks closer to the green than it appears is a really effective hazard.

[Keith OHalloran]

The 12th hole at Southampton Golf Club has a bunker short right almost exactly as you describe. I always thought it was a well thought out and well placed bunker.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Patrick - Were you playing a Tillinghast course? There seems to be a template-ish par-5 that fits that description at a few places.

[Ben Sims]

Mr Mucci,

This feature is used extensively at Talking Stick North.  Maybe not necessarily on uphill shots to par 5's, but bunker "offsetting" is a feature used to great effect there.  I think any hole with a long approach--namely long par 3's and reachable par 5's--are great candidates for the use of this feature.  The uphill nature of a hole would make it even more visually confusing. 

Bill Coore seems to have a knack for making many of his pin positions more accessible with a ground shot, but visually making you want to attack the green from the air.  It affected my play positively in one respect.  It being my first go around TSN, I was mindful take an extra club on most approaches that I saw with a bunker in front of--or what I thought was in front of--the green. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick - Were you playing a Tillinghast course? There seems to be a template-ish par-5 that fits that description at a few places.

Jaeger,

No, it was a Hurzdan & Fry course.

[John Moore II]

Tobacco Road and Tot Hill Farm have a few of these features. Especially the first hole at Tobacco Road. Certainly this is not a shot into the green, but a tee shot that has an unfamiliar setting and yardage. And certainly bunkers short of the green are not uncommon (though I would be hard pressed to name more than a few holes that I have played with this feature.) I do think #16 at Pinehurst #1 has a bunker about 25 yards short of the green that makes for an interesting hazard for anyone trying to drive the green.

Only problem I have with this feature though is that if its built on a public access course that gets a high volume of play it can really bog up the course because people lay up and take an additional shot, hit into the bunker and take possibly 2 or 4 additional shots or don't realize its so far short of the green and wait an inordinate amount of time to try to go for the green. But on a private course, its a neat feature, so long as its not over used.

[Patrick_Mucci]

What appeared to be a key element in the feature's ability to intimidate the golfer was the clearly visible size and DEPTH of the bunker, lending itself perfectly to an uphill approach where the bunker can be cut into the grade.

[John Moore II]

What appeared to be a key element in the feature's ability to intimidate the golfer was the clearly visible size and DEPTH of the bunker, lending itself perfectly to an uphill approach where the bunker can be cut into the grade.

I have not seen any features that match that description exactly. But like I said, Tobacco Road has a fair number of holes where there are hills that block a clear vision of the landing area and really bring intimidation into play. But once you can get past them, you realize the fairway is very large and forgiving.

[Ben Sims]

What appeared to be a key element in the feature's ability to intimidate the golfer was the clearly visible size and DEPTH of the bunker, lending itself perfectly to an uphill approach where the bunker can be cut into the grade.

Mr. Mucci,

If you don't mind, which Hurdzan & Fry course might this have been?  Might this bunker have been one of Jeff Bradley's?

But I like what you said above.  DEPTH.  Imagine that, a hazard actually being a hazard.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

What appeared to be a key element in the feature's ability to intimidate the golfer was the clearly visible size and DEPTH of the bunker, lending itself perfectly to an uphill approach where the bunker can be cut into the grade.

Mr. Mucci,

If you don't mind, which Hurdzan & Fry course might this have been?  Might this bunker have been one of Jeff Bradley's?

But I like what you said above.  DEPTH.  Imagine that, a hazard actually being a hazard.

That would narrow it down to THE Jeff Bradley bunkered Hurdzan/Fry course, clever fellow you are Ben.

That same course was my first guess too though although not for the "Bunker Guru" connection.

JC's mention of the same feature at CP's #7 fits the thread well though as the shot is one from roughly the same distance, 200-250. yards out.

[Patrick_Mucci]

What appeared to be a key element in the feature's ability to intimidate the golfer was the clearly visible size and DEPTH of the bunker, lending itself perfectly to an uphill approach where the bunker can be cut into the grade.

Mr. Mucci,

If you don't mind, which Hurdzan & Fry course might this have been? 

Hamilton Farm

Might this bunker have been one of Jeff Bradley's?

But I like what you said above.  DEPTH.  Imagine that, a hazard actually being a hazard.

[Jerry Kluger]

Pat: do you consider a feature as positive if it is only intimidating the first time you play the hole? 

[JC Jones]

Pat: do you consider a feature as positive if it is only intimidating the first time you play the hole? 

It is interesting that you bring that up because both times I have played holes with that feature recently, the people who had played the hole multiple times did not think much about it. 

[Bill Brightly]

Tuxedo #10 is a  short par 5 with this feature. What frightens me is the 30-40 yard bunker shot (to a very shallow green) that a miss will leave me,taking birdie off the table and bringing bogey CLEARLY into the picture. A great element on a short par 5, IMO.


Pat, I'm guessing you were playing in the Hoffman Cup. Did you win your match?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat: do you consider a feature as positive if it is only intimidating the first time you play the hole? 

Jerry,

It depends upon the degree of distinction between the perceived threat and the actual threat.

I would consider this particular feature...... dire, and thus, while I know I have a safety net of sorts, a mishit will have calamatous results, thus, it's to be given careful consideration.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, I'm guessing you were playing in the Hoffman Cup.

Yes


Did you win your match?

No, we lost one or two down for the 18.

we played agains the Pro, a really nice fellow, who's also a fine player.
He was hitting irons into the par 5's while I was beating my 3-wood.
He drove the ball extremely well and his irons had great height and flight on them.
I quickly became jealous of his left arm which was ramrod straight and accelerated through the ball spectacularly.
We really had an enjoyable match, although I was disappointed in my ratty play.

I'm anxious to watch the Sybase Championship to see how the LPGA Pros fare on the course.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
I think it's the length of the approach that makes the arrangement work so well and stay fresh, even with multiple plays. 200+ yard decisions are harder to make when a bunker is there for your foozle, which is more likely to run out of steam and into a hazard that's short of the green than continue rolling into one placed greenside.

You mention that the bunker is deep. Do you have to walk down into it or is much of the depth gained because it's cut into the hillside? I like ones where a player can just walk right in the from the tee end, but the 'depth' is due to the terrain on the green end. They can play just as 'deep' but aren't a chore for anyone to walk in and out, and they are easier to maintain while still having teeth.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

I think it's the length of the approach that makes the arrangement work so well and stay fresh, even with multiple plays. 200+ yard decisions are harder to make when a bunker is there for your foozle, which is more likely to run out of steam and into a hazard that's short of the green than continue rolling into one placed greenside.

Jim,

I'd agree.

It's a perfect feature for a reachable par 5.
It's a long shot and the feature MUST be negotiated if you're to reach the green in two, unless you can hit an enormous fade that cuts at the right angle and at the right time

You mention that the bunker is deep.
Do you have to walk down into it or is much of the depth gained because it's cut into the hillside?
I like ones where a player can just walk right in the from the tee end, but the 'depth' is due to the terrain on the green end. They can play just as 'deep' but aren't a chore for anyone to walk in and out, and they are easier to maintain while still having teeth.

It was a combination of both.
You had to walk down into it, but, it's depth was significant when measured against the top of the bunker where the putting surface sat, recessed about 30 yards or more away, depending upon where you were in the bunker.

If you were in the bunker you had a blind bunker shot AND a long bunker shot, quite a formidable combination.

As intimidating as the bunker looked from the DZ, the dilema presented once you were in it was considerable.

It's a terrific feature, especially if you have terrain ascending to the green.