[Scott Warren]

I missed that, Brian. Thanks for pointing it out.

I'm not trying to annoy him, no. I'm not sure why you'd try to attach such devious motives to an open, honest desire to discuss a golf course.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Pat thanks again for taking the time.  It must have been very strange opening a thread to find someone else purporting to represent your thoughts and I'm happy that you have pointed out where I got it wrong.

I understand that you don’t wish to get involved with a back and forth and that's fine but I would highlight what I've come to pick up on as other people’s perceptions (including myself about the courses).

The issue of how The European Club is maintained.  As you can see above I got you wrong here I believed you had a deliberate policy of green.  I thought twice before writing what I did. I couldn't reconcile, the conditions I observed when I played, the fact that you were able to drive me over large parts of the course in a saloon car and comments you made when you first came on the site about not wishing to see divots that can’t regrow on a brown course. Let’s just say I did not find the turf as firm and fast as at RCD or Baltray two other east course of Ireland links and this seems quite a common perception

Like it or not the perception is that your courses do not feature micro undulations.  I do recall hitting balls above and below my feet but the contours on the three main courses listed above more closely resemble those found on inland course than traditional links in the eyes of people I have talked to.  I recall the same thing at Birkdale and perhaps that is how land lies when the routing flows between large dunes. I will get hold of 50 Years in a Bunker in the hope of seeing what the land looked like before construction.


Finally congratulation on living the dream. You’ve probably written and had read more about Golf than any of the participants here (and got paid for it!).  You’ve built some outstanding Golf holes instead of just talking about them.  I would like to know more about your society to get more golfers access to private clubs before you started building new ones. I have watched your efforts to help prepare Irish golfers for the challenge of The Open with particularly interest. Irish Golf owes you a big thanks for all your work over the years.

Yesterday was a good day for Irish Golf.


Tony

[Ben Stephens]

Its is interesting that you prefer hard and running fairways when the images of the course shows it being lush and green. Also forgot that it rains so much in Ireland unlike the Norfolk coast where I recently played Hunstanton with brownish green fairways.

The photos presented here lately don't represent TEC accurately in my opinion.  It's definitely browner, firmer, faster than the images would make it appear. 

My longest drive ever, anywhere, is on TEC #13 and I normally play at ~4200-5000 feet.  It was a good poke with a nice low draw (perfect for that hole) but it ran forever and finished up at roughly 350 yards. 

Jon, 

Thanks for letting me know about brown fairways - the images may have been given a makeover  I have only heard about the European from a few friends with varying comments - I will have to find out myself and hopefully have the opportunity to meet Pat someday.

Cheers
Ben

[Pat Ruddy]

Mr Muldoon

Driving around a golf links is a privilige one can enjoy if one happens to own it ....
I have driven on or being driven on quite a few others as well.
I bet that it would be lovely to drive around St. Andrews, Turnberry, Birkdale, St. George's, Lytham and many others in the same way BUT those pesky committee men mighn't like it when they'd see a stranger behaving that way! In fact I wouldn't encourage strangers to do it here either although I once gave my car to an old gentleman (befpre we had golf cars) who was very ill and wanted to play just one more game ....   He made it safely!

One of the great things is that one can drive around the links here any day of the year without leaving a tyre mark when to do the same on the majority of courses would be to invite sinking to the axle.
Anyway, if you didn't enjoy the spin (!) you can walk next time,
PR

[Michael Whitaker]

Tony - Maybe Mr. Ruddy would be willing to host the 2011 Buda Cup? It would be a great opportunity for a good number of us to see TEC first hand... not to mention the possibility of visiting Dublin's Temple Bar district!

[Bill_McBride]

Tony - Maybe Mr. Ruddy would be willing to host the 2011 Buda Cup? It would be a great opportunity for a good number of us to see TEC first hand... not to mention the possibility of visiting Dublin's Temple Bar district!

And maybe play a day at Lahinch?   

[Mark Chaplin]

Pat - I believe from a news report there are currently 300 000 empty houses in Ireland, including brand new estates of 4-5 bedroom houses no body wants to live in. Are they really ripping up the Dun Laoghaire course to build more (unwanted) houses??

[Duncan Betts]

I missed that, Brian. Thanks for pointing it out.

I'm not trying to annoy him, no. I'm not sure why you'd try to attach such devious motives to an open, honest desire to discuss a golf course.

Then why ask 'loaded questions' ?

I wouldn't even call them questions, they are just criticisms dressed up as questions, but unfortunately if it looks like a duck....

[Scott Warren]

Duncan,

I don't have any interest in this descending into petty arguing and name-calling. There has been too much of that from some posters already.  My intentions here are, and have always been, good. In future I would urge you to avoid making charcter judgments about people you've not met.

[Duncan Betts]

I haven't made a character judgment on anyone here that I can see?

If you feel that those a fair and reasonable questions, without any 'loading' then fair enough.  There has been no petty name calling from myself, nor any arguing.

It's just my personal opinion, that if you want a reasonable answer from someone, you should ask a reasonable question.

Sort of like saying to someone on another topic "That's an ugly painting you have there on the wall, and what on earth posessed you to put it there?"

Perhaps "That's an interesting piece of art there, what are its origins, does it have any personal significance?" would be a better way to word the question, and in future I would urge you to take the less confrontational approach.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Pat - I believe from a news report there are currently 300 000 empty houses in Ireland, including brand new estates of 4-5 bedroom houses no body wants to live in. Are they really ripping up the Dun Laoghaire course to build more (unwanted) houses??

Mark, seeing as Pat may or may not resurface on this thread, I'll fill you in slightly:

The old Dun Laoghaire course (designed by Harry Colt on a current space of 69 acres) has been out of commission for 2 or 3 years now... During the boom times, they did a land swap deal, building a new 27 hole facility out of town... Before most (or maybe all?) of that land was built on, the market crashed... So it is in limbo but I have no doubt it will be built on at sometime in the future because it is in a prime location...

That prime location for me meant that Dun Laoghaire (as was) was the perfect "sustainable" golf course.... cheap to maintain and the busiest (bar none in my estimation) clubhouse in the country... A very social club... The new facility is completely wrong... It is a resort style, very long, very expensive place with a huge unused clubhouse... They doubled their visitor green fees and lost every single one of the society outings that were bread and butter intakes at the old course...

It is one of the worst examples of Celtic Tiger excess on display in our country...

Taken as an individual entity, the golf course itself (designed by Marc Westenborg of Hawtree) may be very good... I have heard some pretty decent reports... and I'm fairly sure he would have been following a strong client brief...

Still, the whole undertaking rankles with me...

[Jack_Marr]

Pat - I believe from a news report there are currently 300 000 empty houses in Ireland, including brand new estates of 4-5 bedroom houses no body wants to live in. Are they really ripping up the Dun Laoghaire course to build more (unwanted) houses??

Mark, seeing as Pat may or may not resurface on this thread, I'll fill you in slightly:

The old Dun Laoghaire course (designed by Harry Colt on a current space of 69 acres) has been out of commission for 2 or 3 years now... During the boom times, they did a land swap deal, building a new 27 hole facility out of town... Before most (or maybe all?) of that land was built on, the market crashed... So it is in limbo but I have no doubt it will be built on at sometime in the future because it is in a prime location...

That prime location for me meant that Dun Laoghaire (as was) was the perfect "sustainable" golf course.... cheap to maintain and the busiest (bar none in my estimation) clubhouse in the country... A very social club... The new facility is completely wrong... It is a resort style, very long, very expensive place with a huge unused clubhouse... They doubled their visitor green fees and lost every single one of the society outings that were bread and butter intakes at the old course...

It is one of the worst examples of Celtic Tiger excess on display in our country...

Taken as an individual entity, the golf course itself (designed by Marc Westenborg of Hawtree) may be very good... I have heard some pretty decent reports... and I'm fairly sure he would have been following a strong client brief...

Still, the whole undertaking rankles with me...

Yes, there were lots of old people who were members of Dun Laoghaire. They could just walk from their homes onto a nice, but not very demanding, course.

Personally, I'm not a fan of the new club (27) holes. The brief seems to have been to stick in some lakes and the like. Some very good holes, though.

And they were not very welcoming when they moved. Heard lots of stories about people being quizzed by a security guard at the gate. I was in a group playing a charity even there, and the security guard was reluctant to let the people ahead of me in.

[Ken Kearney]

Nice reply Pat... always enlightening.

Just to let some know the type of character Pat Ruddy is... although I suspect he will cringe at me offering this...

I was a novice architect when a golf course design project arose in the West of Irleand some years ago. Pat was asked by the client to consider the project but for various reasons it did not suit him at the time. He recommended me to the client and I got my foot on the ladder. I am eternally grateful for the opportunity afforded to me by Pat. Indeed, during the project he offered me some very sound advice... and continues to do so when we have the opportunity to chat...

I am also very fortunate to enjoy Honorary Membership of one of the finest "golfing clubs" any golfer cares to play, anywhere... The European Club. On winning our national championship (many years ago)... the very next day, Pat Ruddy sent me a hand-written note offering Honorary membership of his golf club. I was blown away by the genorosity of the man and treasure my association with Pat to this day... although I dont get to play enough golf at The European Club.

Pat Ruddy is one of the most generous, proud, intelligent and amusing characters any golfer might be lucky enough to meet. Spend a few minutes in his company if you get the chance...

Keep up the good work Pat.

Go raibh an ghaoth go brách ag do chúl.

Ken.

[Niall C]

I haven't made a character judgment on anyone here that I can see?

If you feel that those a fair and reasonable questions, without any 'loading' then fair enough.  There has been no petty name calling from myself, nor any arguing.

It's just my personal opinion, that if you want a reasonable answer from someone, you should ask a reasonable question.

Sort of like saying to someone on another topic "That's an ugly painting you have there on the wall, and what on earth posessed you to put it there?"

Perhaps "That's an interesting piece of art there, what are its origins, does it have any personal significance?" would be a better way to word the question, and in future I would urge you to take the less confrontational approach.

Not really wanting to take sides here but Scott's questions looked pretty reasonable to me. Maybe they were unlikely to be answered given the history between him and Pat alluded to in this and other posts but I don't think they were loaded or unreasonable. Scott has obviously got soem issues with the design and has articulated his thoughts pretty well. Whether or not he is right, I can't say, I've never played the course but I think it reasonable to ask the questions he does particularly on a site like this.

Niall

[Mark Pearce]

I haven't made a character judgment on anyone here that I can see?

If you feel that those a fair and reasonable questions, without any 'loading' then fair enough.  There has been no petty name calling from myself, nor any arguing.

It's just my personal opinion, that if you want a reasonable answer from someone, you should ask a reasonable question.

Sort of like saying to someone on another topic "That's an ugly painting you have there on the wall, and what on earth posessed you to put it there?"

Perhaps "That's an interesting piece of art there, what are its origins, does it have any personal significance?" would be a better way to word the question, and in future I would urge you to take the less confrontational approach.

You may not have made a character judgment (though I suspect you have) but you have certainly interpreted a fairly reasonable set of questions, aimed at a frank discussion of architecture (which, after all, is the point of this site) in a way that suggests an ulterior motive and that has required a judgment to be made.  Read Scott's questions again.  There's no harm in his having an opinion on TEC, nor in asking questions.  His questions aren't offensive but do go to the core purpose of this site.

[Bill Brightly]

I'll say this: as someone who loves traveling to Ireland to play golf, I had picked up some negative feelings about TEC and therefore, it was not on my list. But the recents threads and Mr. Ruddy's responses have made me really want to play it a few times and see for myself!

[Pat Ruddy]

It is only because Mr. Warren persists in posting NUMEROUS NEGATIVE COMMENTS on my work on the web .... presumably to stay there for years ... that I find it necessary to state my side of the equation.  Not to do so would be to allow his views to be read and reread for years to come and believed to be true as though he were an expert in the field of course architecture.

In fact, Mr. Warren's knowledge of The European Club is extremely limited.  On his own first post on GCA concerning us he stated:-
"I got a bit unlucky with the weather - with gusts recorded at over 100km/h (65mph) through the day: Foam from the sea was landing on parts of the course about 500m inland! - but a mate and I soldiered on and enjoyed using some imagination to keep the ball out of the wind."

It would take an absolute genius to study a golf course of any complexity in such a limited time, in such conditions and while striving to play golf.  But the imagination used in playing in a gale was then let off the leash in the matter of an expert commentary on my links.

Mr. Warren met me on the day and could have asked any questions he wished. I gave him the courtesy of the course and would have expected the courtesy of a letter if he had anything to say or ask.  Others have approached things differently  and I hope that they enjoyed the fact that  I gave them plenty of my time and maybe even  a spin around the links with stops to discuss various points.    But Mr. Warren just rushed away into the ultra-public arena of the internet to , in the guise of an expert .... because what other type of person could set up and maintain a commentary site of his own?, post a negative ....

After Mr Warren posted his negatives on the internet instead of first talking with me or writing to me I took the liberty of writing to him.   He went ballistic and remains so!   For a man who does not hesitate to bash another in public he has the thinnest of skins when it comes to private comment on vis own views.  And he has the gall to suggest that I am defensive or sensitive or wish to suppress views on me and my work!!!!   

Anyway, since I wrote to him he has effectively stalked me and I will give these few examples as the basis of my belief:

ONE-

Soon after our encounter, he started a topic "Holes that take you away from the ocean" and by coincidence decided to attack The European Club.....

"One that doesn't do the job so well, I think, is the 16th at The European. A NOTHING hole following the joy of 12-15, and it begins a pretty average closing stretch."

I took issue with him privately over the use of the term "NOTHING" but all that happened was that he went more ballistic still until pretty well nothing at The European Club was worth a damn in his eyes!

TWO -

Soon after that, on his Global Golfer he was full of praise for Silloth-On-Solway.  I am sure it is a wonderful place.   But Mr. Warren, with over 30,000 other courses to chose for comparisons (which can be odious things anyway) and 47 placed ahead of Silloth on the Golf World GB&I rankings ceased on the opportunity to attack The European Club thus:-

" The European Club is 30-odd places ahead of it in Golf World's poll and would get one, perhaps two, round(s) of a 10-Round Split between the two courses in my book. Silloth is golf as it was meant to be played - The European is an advertisement for the power and capabilities of heavy earthmoving machinery."


Ouch.....     If I may comment frankly .... THE LOUSE!  Sorry if that is an attack on his "character".

THREE -

Mr Warren is now in full flow and oozing hurt feelings.
So along comes the debate on the Best Holes in Ireland arises on GCA.
Mr. Warren bides his time but not for long.  When Chris Roselle posts an opinion on some fine Irish golf holes that were not included amongst the Best Holes in Ireland story:

"Here are some of what I think at the best...
#2 and #4 at Old Head
#3 at Waterville
#7 at The European Club
#15 at Portmarnock"

Mr. Warren is up like a flash.  Given a menu of four holes from four venues, and all of Ireland's other 7,200 golf holes, he pops the innocent question:

"#7 at The European Club
Can you talk me through why you are so keen on this hole, Chris?"

Now he has his old pal Pat back in the frying pan!  He knows that someone will rise to the bait and help him.   He basks for awhile. But  not for long until he is back with his coup de grace:

"That's the hole. I'll never understand how, but it was apparently named as one of the best 100 golf holes in the world."

Ouch  ....... 

So, there it is.  Some GCA people think I am sensitive, defensive and proud.   I don't think so.  I'm private as possible, concentrated on my work and my family, and think I have the mental capacity to balance praise and criticism of my work without emotion ... always considering all comments for content which i should consider .... and always admiring the good works of my fellow designers who, to a man, stick their necks on the line to produce the best golf courses they can in whatever circumstances prevail.

But I'm not for being bashed without reply and let the record show that I have counter-commented on this site  only twice in all the years.  It is my view that both men behaved badly and in a stalking fashion towards me and I am content that I have been justified in replying openly to both.  Not to do so would suggest that they might be right. Not to do so would be to allow them to contaminate the world of golf opinion against my work.  Beyond that I have no feeling towards them....

Of course, I won't be answering Mr. Warren's loaded questions.   Questions framed in the context of an attack on me and my work. Questions of the mode:  Have you stopped beating your wife yet?   A yes answer means you did beat her.  A no answer means you are still beating her.   He had every opportunity to get answers when he met me.  He could have done so in the weeks after we met and I made him welcome into my golfing home.   He has no right to DEMAND AN INTERVIEW with me or anyone else. 

Hopefully he will become more thoughtful and considerate with age.
 
For my part,  I do not propose continuing on this topic in this forum but I wish everyone well and hope that they enjoy their golf in 2010 and beyond .

Pat Ruddy

[JC Jones]

Mr Ruddy,

With all due respect, we criticize the hell out of all golf courses here, even the greatest of them all.  In other words, you are not alone.  I've seen architects on here criticize the work of other architects, even architects with whom they've worked with.  I've seen people rip Augusta National apart because it has strayed from what it used to be.  There are people on here who have said courses such as Seminole, NGLA, Friars Head, Pine Valley, etc. are not great.  It is the nature of what this site is about and what this site is for. 

This isn't stalking.  I ripped 95% of Florida golf courses in a thread, am I stalking their owners and architects?  No.  My suggestion to you is to either a) ignore this and other golf sites completely so as to ensure peace of mind or b) engage and deal with the fact that not everyone is going to like every hole on your golf course.

In any event, and likely not much consolation at this point, I have not been persuaded by Mr Warren's comments and am very hopeful to one day see your course.  Because, believe it or not, the people on this site are able to think for themselves.

Cheers

Jason C. Jones

[Mark Pearce]

Pat,

I have to ask: is that as bad as it gets?  Even in your chosen three pieces Scott describes "the joy of 12-15" - that's praise, if you didn't spot it.  OK, he doesn't like the finish, he's entitled not to but his review is certainly not exclusively negative.  On the second point, he's not alone in considering Silloth woefully under-rated.  Indeed if you had followed the thread he also compares it favourably to another higher rated course, Royal Cinque Ports, of which he is a member.  On that second of your three pieces of evidence it would inform a number of us and answer a question that only you on here may know the answer to, but how much earth moving was done at The European Club.  That isn't a loaded, pointed question.  It's a question of interest to many on here.  Finally, he doesn't think the seventh at TEC gets near one of the best 100 holes in the world.  I don't know how many tens of thousands of golf holes there are in the world but it would have to be a truly extraordinary hole to qualify for that accolade.

Also, as has been pointed out, we can all think for ourselves.  This "debate" (I use parentheses since you appear unwilling to engage in a discussion) can only benefit TEC.  Jason Jones will not be alone in having his interest in viewing your course increased by it.  I consider Scott a friend and from those discussions I have had with him I have broadly similar tastes in golf courses.  Nonetheless I too am now more interested, rather than less, in seeing and playing TEC.

[Ben Stephens]

Dear Pat Ruddy,

Are you implying that the The European Club is the perfect golf course. It may be in your eyes everyone is entitled to an opinion whether you like it or not. The more you go on about Scott Warren the more questions Scott Warren will ask you that is his journalist's instinct kicking into action. Tiger will never a free day away from journalists for the rest of his life!.

Some people may prefer Silloth to the European that is their opinion. This is a forum which allows 1500 keen golf course architecture fanatics to have their say some love American style and hate links courses or the other way round.

Having seen Scott's images of the European there are strengths and weakness in my view. Having never played it the 8th looks a very nice hole and 12-15 look awesome. Like a few others I would question the look of the 18th water hazard in my view looks unnatural your view may be different and I respect that. Is Augusta or Pine Valley or Royal Birkdale perfect - no it has its flaws.

I have designed 2 x 18 hole courses which may be way behind the amount that you have worked on. I prepared myself better to take criticism on board for the second course I designed based on my experience with the 1st one. Some people on GCA may be reluctant to ask you any future questions because of your reaction at times which I think is a shame because you could give amazing stories, opinions and information about Pat Ruddy designs or golf in Ireland which is a joy for most of us on GCA.

I too have had a few tricky questions from Scott and few others on GCA but thats the nature of being on this forum sometimes for example Sean Arble and Ian Andrew's constructive discussion about Pennard recently with differing view of certain aspects of this golf course which I am looking forward to play in September and put forward my opnion..  

In some ways this has been a great free marketing for you to entice more Americans and UK golfers to make the jounrey to Dublin just to play the European despite the world economic situation. GCA probably has more than 20000 readers reading the forum.

Finally Pat I have a huge respect for what you have done for golf in Ireland with some great golf courses but in life nothing is perfect and it would be a privelege to meet you inperson someday and play the European.

Carpe Diem

Regards

Ben Stephens

[Ben Stephens]

Questions of the mode:  Have you stopped beating your wife yet?   A yes answer means you did beat her.  A no answer means you are still beating her.   He had every opportunity to get answers when he met me.  He could have done so in the weeks after we met and I made him welcome into my golfing home.   He has no right to DEMAND AN INTERVIEW with me or anyone else.

Pat - this comment stinks - there a a lot of good human beings like me on this site that wouldn't dare hit a woman at all. I am sure that you are a good family man who has high standard morals. This is a poor and irrational behaviour which does not put you in any good stead. Scott is a professional journalist and he knows how the system works even though he can be a pain in the arse at time .

I am not taking sides but I just find this bickering sad and a waste of some people's times who enjoying venturing through all the different thread of this forum.

Ben

[Scott Warren]

Mark Pearce is absolutely right of course.

Pat ignores that I have praised TEC within the same writings that it was criticised.

Pat ignores that my Silloth review also "talked down" my own club, host of two Open Championships and the 2013 British Amateur.

Pat ignores that I have been far more scathing about the 10th at St Enodoc than anything on his course.

Pat ignores that several other GCA members crticised the 7th at TEC within the same recent discussion where I suggested it wasn't among the world's 100 best holes.

Above all he ignores that fact, well pointed out by Jason, that far sterner criticism is made of courses on a regular basis. I kept my criticisms about the course.

Then he makes the same declaration he made after answering Tony's questions that he would not take any questions on the matter or discuss it further, ensuring no one can make him acknowledge the web of lies, half truths and ridiculous accusations he has just spun.

Pat, I invite you to answer the questions I posted in this thread. They are hardly "loaded" or "leading". I don't buy that you're really this outraged. If you wanted this discussion to go away you wouldn't keep throwing petrol on the fire and bumping the threads up (I notice you posted you latest missive in the Frank Commentary thread as well) when they started to move down the front page of the forum.

This is what I wrote about The European Club. Judge for yourselves whether I am out of line: European Club review

[Ben Stephens]

Trying not to ruffle a few more feathers - did Rosapenna call in Tom Doak to have a look at redesigning Sandy Hills course as Pat Ruddy's original design was said to be too difficult for the majority of golfers? I wonder how similar Sandy Hills course is to the European.

Scott - will come back after a closer read of your article on TEC

Cheers
Ben

[Pat Ruddy]

Mr. Warren

You have just called me a liar.

I invite a withdrawal and  apology.

Pat Ruddy

[Andrew Summerell]

After Mr Warren posted his negatives on the internet instead of first talking with me or writing to me I took the liberty of writing to him.   

If 'he has no right to DEMAND AN INTERVIEW with me or anyone else', why do you have the right to demand a letter from him.

Questions of the mode:  Have you stopped beating your wife yet?   A yes answer means you did beat her.  A no answer means you are still beating her.   He had every opportunity to get answers when he met me.  He could have done so in the weeks after we met and I made him welcome into my golfing home.   He has no right to DEMAND AN INTERVIEW with me or anyone else. 

Why did you have to bring wife beating into it? We talk about golf courses here. In the great scheme of things, it's not that important. Scott's comments aren't going to turn people away from playing TEC anymore than any of the other negative comments I've read about TEC over the years.

Unfortunately, the greatest damage done to the view that others have of us is done by ourselves.

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