Monroe GC

[Matt_Cohn]

I was happy to see Monroe GC in New York complimented in the new Golfweek. I played in the Monroe Invitational last summer - it's a fun tournament and an excellent Ross course.

I have a question for other people who have played the course. Golfweek mentioned that the trees are a little overgrown, and that #1 and #12 greens didn't fit. I can understand the trees, and #12 green is a little weird. But what's wrong with #1 green??? It sure fits in with the rest of the course. Is it just the greenside bunkers that don't fit? Can someone please explain?

[Patrick Hitt]

Matt,
The first green sticks out because it has a very manufactured looking greensite that incorporates gentle rolls into the surrounds. The bunkers are also out of character with the rest of the course. The green was moved from its original site (further to the right i believe) because of the range.

There is a reason this course won the Rodney Dangerfield Award in  Golfweek - no one tries to see it. The purest Ross I have seen. This is the kind of shorter course with tons of character that Ran loves.  

[John Purcell]

As a member of Monroe Golf Club, I know I speak for all with thanks to Brad Klein for his good words in Golf Week about our course, which is classic Ross and we feel a true hidden gem.

Brad's comment and Matt's question on the 1st and 12th hole are spot on, since they were each moved slightly to the right, both in the interest of safety to players on the next tee. The Ross routing in 1923 flowed so well with only a few steps from green to next tee. But over the next 40 years the next tee on these two holes started to come into play for longer hitters. So they were forced to move the greens. By the 1960's Mr Ross, of course, was no longer available and moving the greens even slightly showed once again that Ross new precisely where to locate the finish of a hole. The new greens had to go on land that just did not quite have the same "feel" as the others.

Many of us believe that these two greens can still be made much closer to a Ross design with some careful planning and using an architect skilled and committed to the Ross tradition. Thankfully, those two moves showed members what they had in the first place and no other changes in the course have been allowed. So we play on, knowing that we have a 95% Donald Ross original to enjoy.

I know MGC is on the list of many people to play and I hope you get to Rochester to try it. There are 6 Ross courses in Rochester, another in Buffalo and one in Syracuse. All were built by Ross between 1916 and 1924 so they show his touch at a very important stage of his prolific career. For the classic golf course fans that appear to abound on this site, I think you would enjoy such a visit.

Allow me to also plug our annual amateur event, The Monroe Invitational Championship. This continues to attract a strong field every year and we are always looking for ways to make it even better. If you are or know of a top ranked US amateur who has an interest, pls check out our web site: monroegolfclub.com/mic

We have held the MIC every June since 1937.This is our gift back to golf since it is not an event that generates any money for the club. Instead, we give up the course for a week to the top amaters in the U.S. and Monroe members host the players in their homes. In turn, the players treat us to some fantastic golf.

One of the MIC practice rounds features a one day tournament with each amateur paired with a  Monroe member. Having had the chance to play with Tiger while still an amateur, as well Sergio and Charles Howell and dozens of the other young guns on the PGA Tour, gives our members an experience no Pro-am event ever could. It is just golf for the pure fun of it.

And that's what we like about Monroe.

[John Foley]

John & Patrick,

Let me ask you about the strategic nature of the par 5's. W/ 3 of them playing under 500 yards how much strategy involved? It looks as though the rough may be the biggest determinant in forcing many to either lay up or go for the green.  What about the green surrounds on these?

The par 3's have a very nice flow to them. I like both # 13 & #8.

Glad to see a fellow Rochestarian posting!

[Patrick Hitt]

John,
I applaud your membership for continuing to restore the shot values of the course. The bunker restoration was a great example of how a membership and a talented superintendant can take their time and get great results in house while not greatly affecting play. Hopefully the members will someday fall out of love with the christmas tree on the 5th.  

[PGertner]

Hi Matt    

Thanks for posting about our "award".

After seeing our aerial yesterday on GCA, I wrote that I sometimes find I introduce myself to people in golf as the Super of the best Donald Ross golf course you have never heard of.  And, after reading of learned GCA'ers writing that they have never heard of us, I guess I may be correct.  

If GCA followers would like to see Monroe, (the course in OHCC's shadow), please give me a call.  I love to show people
another option in Rochester.  Most people are not disappointed.  

(See aerial #44...GCA, March 12.

Matt..see you in June.

Patrick Gertner

[Ran Morrissett]

Monroe was built a year or two before either course at Oak Hill - did its immediate appeal perhaps influence the board at Oak Hill as to what architect to hire?

I've only played the East course at Oak Hill - how is its topography relative to that of Monroe's? So often, the early built course enjoys the better land - is that the case here?

How many acres does Monroe GC occupy?

[John Foley]

Ran,

Topography wise, Monroe & Oak Hill are very similar. They are about 1-2 miles as the crow flies and it's the same semi-rolling terain. Patrick may want to comment on acreage, but it looks like Monroe has about 80% of what he East course has. The land at Monroe may be better, but I wouldn't consider it dramatically better. CCR (Country Club or Rochester) which I beleive pre-dates both and is just north of there looks like it has the least favorable terrain of these 4 courses.

[PGertner]

Ran,

Monroe GC is placed on 190 acres.  I am guessing that since Oak Hill was already an established club, they probably took their time choosing an architect.  OHCC swapped land parcels with the University of Rochester, long before Monroe was formed.  It may be just coincidence- the similar timing of Ross doing both Monroe and OHCC.  However, I will investigate further.

Oak Hill needed land for 2 courses, which I don't think was available at the Monroe site.  Topos are similar.  However, the soil types are totally different.  Monroe has what has been called by some agronomists the best soils in golf, while OHCC has heavier silty clay soils.  The sandy soil at Monroe played a huge part in the formation of golf course features, due to the ease of moving the soil during construction.  

Did course officials consider soil types prior to purchasing land in the 1920's?  Does anyone consider soil type prior to purchasing sites today?

Monroe's members purchasing the site with awesome soils is just pure luck, if you ask me...

Thanks

Patrick Gertner

[John Purcell]

Ran

Re Your question on Monroe Golf Club and the time frame of it and Oak Hill, also designed by Donald Ross at same time.

Oak Hill was founded in 1901 but was in a different location here in Rochester. Perched right on the Genesee River quite close to downtown. George Eastman,founder of Kodak and the man who made everthing happen in Rochester NY in those days, coveted this site for the University of Rochester, where he was major benefactor.  

So he brokered a deal. In 1922,He led a very quick drive to raise the money for a new site for Oak Hill, large enough for two courses instead of one. And large enough for a big Tudor style cluhouse to replace their ratty,unheated farmhouse. He would raise the money if Oak Hill traded the land.

The deal was done and then they started looking for a course architect. Meanwile in 1922, Monroe was at the same time in formation. Donald Ross was already somewhat well know and successful in New York  State. Here in Rochester, he had designed the  Country Club of Rochester in 1916,and the first nine at Irondequoit in 1916; Bellevue in Syracuse in 1914; remodeled Wykagl in 1920 and did Thendara in Syracuse in 1921. So both Monroe and Oak Hill turned to him at the same time in 1923. Monroe got done first, probably because of the two course challange at Oak Hill and in July 1924, play began on Monroe's single 18 holes.

Monroe is less than 2 miles from Oak Hill; Irondequoit and the  Country Club of Rochester both adjoin Oak Hill. That makes four Ross courses in less than a 3 mile stretch--not too bad considering we're not Pinehurst, NC.

Monroe's land and location is largerly a matter of luck. We did not need as much land as Oak Hill required and we wound up with 190 acres sitting on a drumlin, a large escarpment left from the Ice Age. Essentially it is rich top soil astride a huge, deep ridge of sand. That accounts for our good fortune of drainage and extends our playing season significantly.

Oak Hill location was a farm with a creek running through out.It resulted in far different and more difficult draingage issues but the routing was done on the East course to bring the creek into play on half the holes. This created a much "harder" course for the average golfer and eventually brought Oak Hill into the championship rota of the USGA. The Oak Hill members have been enormous supporters of this, sharing their course with the USGA way back when it cost the club money, long before the hospitality tent era.

East Course of Oak Hill has been changed many times to make it longer and more difficult and will have still another change for its next major, the 2003 PGA.They are adding yet another set of championship tees, tucking them back into some incredibly tight chutes. Should be fun to watch.  

Hope you come see all this for yourself.

all the best,
 
John Purcell

[John Purcell]

I was delighted at our Monroe Board of Governors meeting last night to hear we have landed Mr Gil Hanse to create something new and special for our members.

Here is the background: In addition to the standard practice range, putting green and chipping areas, we have had at Monroe a separate Par 3 course consisting of six very short holes. Ranging in length from 75 to 120 yards, they were more like a pitch and putt deal. Very small greens with no bunkering, the par 3 course was used mostly by youngsters learning a full swing. But there was no real practice of your short game because the greens were simply too small and not of any quality.

Last fall, we went to the membership with a plan to replace the irrigation system on the 18 hole course and with it to redo the par 3 course. The plan was to tear up the six short holes and create 3 regulation size par 3's, which is all we can fit according to several expert reviews. They would range from 150  yards to 190 yards and would have full size greens, with same seed we use on the real course, complete with chipping areas and bunkers. They would have two sets of tees for both men and women to offer 6 different lengths. The irrigation system would cover these three holes as well.

The members voted overwhelmingly to approve and we were off on our experiment. Through some good fortune that has brought Mr Hanse to Rochester for a project at the Country Club of Rochester, we have hooked up with him and he will design and create the three holes. To those of us who have championed the Par 3 project, this is great news.

At MGC,we have a set of 4 Donald Ross original Par 3's that sparkle in the set of jewels he gave us. I have heard so much about Mr Hanse as a young, creative designer, that I cannot wait to see what he gives us in his Par 3's.

Work starts next month. I will keep the CGA mavens updated.

[ed_getka]

John,
 Thanks for the post. After seeing what Gil et al did at Rustic Canyon out here in SoCal I know your club will be happy with what Gil and his team come up with. If you have a chance to post some pix along the way that would be great.