[John Kirk]

Usually, pin placements on the right half of a green tend to be best approached from the left side of a fairway.  The opposite is true as well, right side for left pins.  Here are a few examples where the opposite strategy is clealy evident, where the left half of the green is best approached from the left, and vice versa.

On #17 Stone Eagle, the reason is a green that has a high left shelf and low right basin.  High right, low left.

On #18 Ballyneal, the reason is two exceptionally nasty pot bunkers in the front of the center of the green.

On #9 Old Macdonald, the reason is a longitudinal ridge bisecting the left and right sides.

In general, the bisecting ridge seems the best way to create the strategic anomaly.  Perhaps a good discussion could be had exploring this concept.

Bill McBride added this example, on the thread where this discussion began.

Another very good example would be #13 at Rustic Canyon, with the monstrous and deep bunker dead front center of a green with wings on both side and a very narrow center behind the bunker.  You absolutely, positively cannot be on the wrong side of the fairway approaching a pin to either side.

I don't know how dedicated I can be to mediating teh discussion, but let's start and see where it goes.

[Carl Nichols]

John-
On those holes, if you pick the correct side of the fairway (eg, the right side for a right pin, where a fade is the preferable shot shape), what kind of shot shape is ideal for the next shot -- fade away from the center hazard, or draw starting away and bringing it toward the hazard? 

[John Kirk]

Carl,

This is a valid question, but I was not considering shot shape when starting the thread.  In the case of #17 Stone Eagle, the preferred shot shape might actually be opposite...fade from left side to left pin and draw from right side to right pin.  But it's only a wedge usually, so the ball won't curve much.

On #18 Ballyneal, the center pot bunkers are so penal that you're bending the long second shot around them as far as you can.

But good players don't turn the ball a lot, and less talented players can't bend it at will.

[Tom_Doak]

John:

I love to throw people a curve like that [or maybe it's a change-up].  Don't want to let players just cruise through the course without thinking ...

A crowned green is another type where you are better off approaching from the same side of the fairway as the hole location.  High Pointe had a couple of doozies.  But the ridge through the green is probably the most effective.  Guys at the Midwest Mashie will see SEVERAL of those at Lost Dunes.  I will tell the Michigan team which greens it is in a couple of weeks' time.

[Mark_F]

This looks like a pretty neat example.  Not quite a ridge, but contour and a knob:

                                                   

Friars Head five, from Ran's review.

For anyone familiar with the hole, does John's thesis hold true for a right side flag?

[Jaeger Kovich]

Mark - Nice choice. If my memory serves me right, it does belong on this list.. I love the hole, but I know a certain minimalist on here who doesn't.

[Bill_McBride]

This looks like a pretty neat example.  Not quite a ridge, but contour and a knob:

                                                   

Friars Head five, from Ran's review.

For anyone familiar with the hole, does John's thesis hold true for a right side flag?

Absolutely, any shot that lands close to that infernal knob is catapulted far away.

[Bill_McBride]

Our course has a couple of fairly steep front to back spines in the green -- playing from the opposite side of the fairway, it's very tough to get close.  Playing from the same side, as far outside the center line as possible, you can use that spine as a backstop or gathering slope.

Par 4 #9



Par 3 #11 - harder to see the spine here but it's steep and balls feed away from it.  It's left of the bunker from this angle.

[Peter Ferlicca]

17 at Stone Eagle is one is the most important second shot lay ups I have experienced for a par 5.  Mr. Kirk is right in saying that you have to be on the side of the fairway for that pin.  If you are high up on the left side of the fairway aiming down to the right pin on the low side of the green, you really have to hit a perfect wedge for it to stay on the green.  You are better off missing the green on the correct side of the flag then having to two putt from one side to the other. The worst thing that can happen is for you to pull your wedge shot up on the top left tier, and have to putt down to the bottom right flag.  You are going to notch yourself a bogey before heading to 18 tee, which you never want to do. 

[John Moore II]

#17 at UNC Finley is like this. Pretty much a split fairway with a huge front to back running tier. That is the only example I can think of off hand. I am sure I have played others, but right now, after a 18 hour work day (yeah, literally working, sweating my bollocks off from 6am until 1130pm) my brain is pretty well spent.

[Bill_McBride]

..

[Jason Topp]

I have always wanted to try that shot on the old course where you bounce it off a mound in front of the green to get close to a left pin from the left side of the fairway (#4 maybe?)

[Sean_A]

I will sing this song til the cows come home.  Burnham's 7th is a great hole partly because it is counter-intuitive in requiring the player approach the green from the same side of the fairway or have a terriblly difficult shot against the run of the land.  What makes it work is that it isn't at all obvious from the tee.  What is obvious is the lone bunker which essentially splits the fairway.  I would love to see more of this subtle design, but to large degree this sort of design is a lost art.  Even if this scenario presents itself most archies will feel compelled to make it too obvious a set-up - usually by over-bunkering the hole.

Ciao 

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