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Jim Colton

Re: Starting Sat., 5/1 - Get To Know Jim Colton
« Reply #100 on: May 05, 2010, 11:44:09 PM »
Jim:

Is Shepherd's Crook really last on your list of Chicago publics?

Tangs excluded, name your dream GCA foursome and non-GCA foursome.

You're on a boat with Snoop, Tom Doak, Yoda and Deron Wiliams. The boat is sinking but there's a lifeboat that holds three people.  Who gets out alive and why?  

Sven,

1. I wouldn't say it's last, it's just last on the list of top courses. That said, I think you're right that it's too low. I recall it being a good value too. Here's a little project for you (and anybody else who played most of the Chicago publics worth playing), put together your rankings of Chicago public courses and I will fold them into the guide.  It is by far the most accessed page on my site.

2. GCA: I'd have to say Bob Huntley, as we got rained out and lunch went by way too fast. Then probably George Bahto, just to soak in as much as possible. And Wyatt Halliday so he could ask intelligent questions and I could just sit back and listen for four hours.   Non-GCA, I'd love to have one more round with my grandfather, and I'd bring my Dad and my eldest son out as well. I can't imagine a better foursome than that.

3. Well, Yoda is 800 years old and Snoop is 37 going on 800 so I think they have to go first. Plus Snoop hasn't done anything worthwhile since Doggfatha. Replace Yoda with Kevin Durant and I'm probably taking one for the team.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Starting Sat., 5/1 - Get To Know Jim Colton
« Reply #101 on: May 06, 2010, 11:48:19 AM »
Jim:

Here's my list of the Chicago area courses (that I've played).  The ranking is based on where I would play if given the choice between any two courses and cost was not a factor.  For example, I would chose Cog #4 over Pine Meadow, etc.  Thunderhawk and Shepherd's Crook are a tie because I would opt to play 36 after driving that far.

1.  Cog #4
2.  Thunderhawk
2.  Shepherd's Crook (Best Value)
4.  Pine Meadow
5.  Prairie Landing
6.  Glen Club (Worst Value)
7.  Cantigny
8.  Stonewall Orchard
9.  Orchard Valley
10.  Ruffled Feathers
11.  Harborside Starboard
12.  Harborside Port
13.  Ravisloe
14.  Prairie Bluff
15.  Big Run
16.  Midlane
17.  Cog #2
18.  Glencoe
19.  Winnetka
20.  Highland Park

There's a group of courses that would follow that offer so little to the discussion that I cannot differentiate among them, including Wilmette, Fox Run, Willow Crest, Carillon and Tamarack.

Beyond that there's a group of courses I would avoid playing out of principal even if the round was free:  Seven Bridges (the name says it all, really should be "Seven Bridges per Hole"), Bolingbrook (much discussed), Lost Marsh (it should stay lost), Klein Creek (never saw a creek, but did see every neighborhood you pass through between holes), White Deer Run (a bad combination of the prior four).   I'd rather drive the extra 3 plus hours to play Lawsonia, the Warren Course or Deere Run than tee it up at any of these joints.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

jonathan_becker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Starting Sat., 5/1 - Get To Know Jim Colton
« Reply #102 on: May 06, 2010, 02:10:03 PM »
Jim,

I just wanted to say that "Pac Dunes will 10&8 any TPC" is an awesome line....probably because it's true.

JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Starting Sat., 5/1 - Get To Know Jim Colton
« Reply #103 on: May 06, 2010, 05:03:12 PM »
Jim,

For any Chicagoan, the question is very simple:

1) If and when it occurs, will you play the next Reverse Jans?

Also:

2) Have you watched/will you watch Treme?  I have not seen it myself, but a few early reviews indicate that it may have the potential to surpass The Wire.  PS good call on the Kima episode.  The series was so seamless that it's hard to think of it in episode-by-episode terms, but when Kima got shot it definitely really sucked in the viewer.

Too bad the Pasa outing got cancelled, I was booked for it!

Jim Colton

Re: Starting Sat., 5/1 - Get To Know Jim Colton
« Reply #104 on: May 06, 2010, 05:22:52 PM »
Jim,

For any Chicagoan, the question is very simple:

1) If and when it occurs, will you play the next Reverse Jans?

Also:

2) Have you watched/will you watch Treme?  I have not seen it myself, but a few early reviews indicate that it may have the potential to surpass The Wire.  PS good call on the Kima episode.  The series was so seamless that it's hard to think of it in episode-by-episode terms, but when Kima got shot it definitely really sucked in the viewer.

Too bad the Pasa outing got cancelled, I was booked for it!

1. I got a soft invite for this past winter from Eric Terhorst, but I won't consider it official unless it comes from the man Shivvy himself. 

2. I have watched the first few episodes of Treme.  I have a hard time believing any series could surpass the Wire, but I have enjoyed it so far.  The subject matter is interesting and Simon does his magic with the character development.  Plus you're willing to give him some leeway early on as the Wire paced itself intentionally out of the gates.  The Wire certainly has a cult following.  If you've watched it, you love it.  How many times have you said or heard someone say, "You simply have to watch The Wire."  You can't even explain it accurately.  You just hope they heed your recommendation and eventually they'll understand.  Just ask Tim Bert, a recent convert turned evangelist.  Of course, the Tang Bros never listen to any advice I ever give them.

Jeff Tang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Starting Sat., 5/1 - Get To Know Jim Colton
« Reply #105 on: May 06, 2010, 05:33:05 PM »
Of course, the Tang Bros never listen to any advice I ever give them.




Similar to how George in Seinfeld learned that he was more successful with his decisions by doing the exact opposite of what his instincts told him, I have employed the same strategy with Jim's advice.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2010, 05:36:11 PM by Jeff Tang »
So bad it's good!

James Boon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Starting Sat., 5/1 - Get To Know Jim Colton
« Reply #106 on: May 06, 2010, 06:18:27 PM »
Bugger, I seem to have missed a whole Star Wars discussion!

I think you leave well enough alone.  I would like to see them expand that Wookie holiday special into a movie. 

Jim,

I think you've accidentally hit the "disable smilies" button  ;D

May the Force be with you, er, I mean Cheers,

James

2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Wyatt Halliday

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Starting Sat., 5/1 - Get To Know Jim Colton
« Reply #107 on: May 06, 2010, 06:44:31 PM »
How did the idea for GolfBlog100 come about?



Will you ever post a section that lists the participants?



What is the general ranking system based on (how is it weighted)?



Will the public section ever be completed?

Jim Colton

Re: Starting Sat., 5/1 - Get To Know Jim Colton
« Reply #108 on: May 06, 2010, 07:53:55 PM »
How did the idea for GolfBlog100 come about?

Will you ever post a section that lists the participants?

What is the general ranking system based on (how is it weighted)?

Will the public section ever be completed?

The GolfBlog100 came about for two reasons.  First, I wanted to put together useful information on the top courses in one place.  There are quite a few bloggers who write about their travels or course reviews, and a lot of it is good stuff.  But sometimes it gets lost in the shuffle as newer posts replace older posts, etc.  If I was heading to play a new course, I'd probably google the course and try to get as much information as possible.  This tries to put it all that in one place.  I've had fun researching courses, digging up scorecards and especially plotting out the routing from the aerials.

Secondly, I had a theory about how to fix the rankings and wanted some data to test it.  Many moons ago, I created a ratings methodology  for sorting out college basketball teams.  I tried to shed some light on the flawed RPI that the NCAA selection committee was using to seed and select teams.  That was the same engine I used for the golf blog 100 data.  Instead of caring about the score you give a particular course, per se, it's only concerned with how strong you consider a course relative to others you've played.  Combining all those individual comparisons, you can come up with a very good relative ranking.

I tried getting hold of the powers that be at the publications to talk about their rankings methodologies.  I have a standing offer to test my methodology on their information free of charge to let them compare the results to their current practice, take it or leave it.  I think it would come up with a ranking that is a much truer reflection of the collective view of their panelists, and I would hope that the publications have that as a basic objective.

In my day job, I have to spend a lot of time worrying about underlying assumptions.  Like "house prices have never declined across the country, therefore they never will."  A lot of the flaws in the system can based on flawed assumptions.  We like to bash Golf Digest's rankings every time they come out.  I don't think it's because the raters don't have a clue, I think it's because Golf Digest assumes they know the exact formula for what makes a golf course great.  They intentionally don't ask for an overall ranking because they assume they have it right.  The numbers cruncher in me would love to have all those categories ranked WITH an overall ranking...with that you could easily tell what categories matter and what the optimal weights would be.  You could even segment golfers based on what categories they like best, and recommend courses in different areas based on segment.

I also think that relying on relative rankings would help Golf Digest's as well.  We like to point out Arcadia vs. Kingsley in the Michigan state rankings as a prime example.  I'm willing to bet that the numbers are skewed by golfer who have played Arcadia but not Kingsley.  I know many golfers who think Arcadia is the best course they've ever played.  If they were a panelist, they'd certainly give it a 10 and every other course would go from there.  Give me somebody who's played Arcadia, Kingsley and Crystal Downs and if Arcadia is still a 10, then that it much more valuable information.

Golf Magazine seems to have a better set of rankings because they have a better system.  Rely on an expert panel, rely on their rankings without a set criteria, allowing them to define what they think separates a good course from a great course.  Some may inherently value one category over another, but in the end you are balancing it out to get the collective view.  My only potential issue is some simplifying assumptions they use in scoring each panelist submission.

"The points break down as follows: Each course placing in the top three on a panelist's ballot earns 100 points; spots 4-10 earn 85 points, followed by 11-25 (70 points), 26-50 (60 points), 51-75 (50 points), 76-100 (40 points), 101-150 (30 points), 151-200 (20 points), 201-250 (10 points), 251 + (0 points). Any course that received a "remove from ballot" vote has 10 points deducted."

I'm not sure how they determined that the difference between somebody's 3rd and 4th or 10th and 11th ranked courses are important, but the difference between 4th and 10th or 11th and 25th aren't important.  You could easily argue that the exact opposite is true.  In my methodology, every one of those data points would be viewed as equally valuable.  Again, I think it's just a simplifying assumption to convert the ranking into an overall score, but there's a much better way of doing it.

I think Golfweek is pretty sound in that they ask for categories and a separate overall rating, but again it could be skewed based on which courses a given panelist has played.  They ask the panelist to score based on slotting the course into a certain range (consistent with top 100 modern or classic, for example), where a relative ranking wouldn't worry about that.

In general, one thing I've discovered is that it's important to have a wide array of opinions.  In the end, those various opinions will balance out and the courses that consistently score well will rise to the top.  The 'best' ranking might actually be one that combines all three of the major publications, assuming you could iron out some of the methodological flaws first.  Of course, people are going to complain that a course is too high or too low, but all that is really saying is that individual has a different set of opinions than the average.  We tend to get bent out of shape when somebody doesn't see a course the same way we see it, as if we have the one and only right opinion.  One GB100 panelist got all riled up because the final rankings of a publication-consensus top 100 course made the GB100 list, while he had it as a '2'.  He obviously thought he had the right answer on that course while the other 99% of golfers were wrong.

The initial release listed the bloggers who participated in the original rankings.  I have a few other contributors as well.  I am always looking for more data points, so if you're well-traveled (200+ courses), aren't a publication rater but like to keep a list, I could use you.  Based on my 'Whip it Out' thread, a lot of us like to rank or categorize the courses we play.

I had hoped to publish the public list this spring, but I think I will hold off until the next update of the Top 100 U.S. in the fall and just do them all at one (international as well).  With Old Mac opening in a couple weeks, I'd like to make sure it's properly represented in the 2010 rankings.


« Last Edit: May 07, 2010, 11:09:36 AM by Jim Colton »

Jim Colton

Re: Starting Sat., 5/1 - Get To Know Jim Colton
« Reply #109 on: July 12, 2010, 08:52:52 AM »

I'm thinking the Colton and Halliday group is a lock.  I'm sure everyone will want to be invited back, so throwing a match against the host is almost a given.....


It's too bad Scott doesn't practice what he preaches. At least he was nice enough not to 10 & 8 his host (like PAc Dunes on any TPC), although it sure felt like it.

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Starting Sat., 5/1 - Get To Know Jim Colton New
« Reply #110 on: July 12, 2010, 01:23:03 PM »
deleted

« Last Edit: August 16, 2010, 10:01:35 AM by Bill Brightly »

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Starting Sat., 5/1 - Get To Know Jim Colton
« Reply #111 on: July 12, 2010, 02:17:07 PM »
 ;D
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Starting Sat., 5/1 - Get To Know Jim Colton
« Reply #112 on: July 12, 2010, 03:38:02 PM »
Of course, the Tang Bros never listen to any advice I ever give them.




Similar to how George in Seinfeld learned that he was more successful with his decisions by doing the exact opposite of what his instincts told him, I have employed the same strategy with Jim's advice.

My dad and I always joke that George's analysis is perfect for golf. Whatever you think you are doing wrong, do the opposite and it tends to work out.

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Starting Sat., 5/1 - Get To Know Jim Colton
« Reply #113 on: July 12, 2010, 06:53:36 PM »

I'm thinking the Colton and Halliday group is a lock.  I'm sure everyone will want to be invited back, so throwing a match against the host is almost a given.....


It's too bad Scott doesn't practice what he preaches. At least he was nice enough not to 10 & 8 his host (like PAc Dunes on any TPC), although it sure felt like it.

Did you really have to go back and retrieve this!
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Starting Sat., 5/1 - Get To Know Jim Colton
« Reply #114 on: July 14, 2010, 04:37:13 PM »
OK, I just finished "One Divot at a Time" and have amended my question accordingly.

Matt Swanson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Starting Sat., 5/1 - Get To Know Jim Colton
« Reply #115 on: August 15, 2010, 05:38:11 PM »
...

Quote
Beyond that there's a group of courses I would avoid playing out of principal even if the round was free:  Seven Bridges (the name says it all, really should be "Seven Bridges per Hole"), Bolingbrook (much discussed), Lost Marsh (it should stay lost), Klein Creek (never saw a creek, but did see every neighborhood you pass through between holes), White Deer Run (a bad combination of the prior four).   I'd rather drive the extra 3 plus hours to play Lawsonia, the Warren Course or Deere Run than tee it up at any of these joints.

Hate for my first post to be a negative one, but I'd have to agree on Lost Marsh.  Call it the steroid cream that got rid of the golf itch I'd been having this summer.  Blind shots (and a couple hazards) all over the place, gimmicky (and too many) water hazards, poorly planned holes.  Won't be back.  Cheap for Chicago golf is about all one can say.  I should say the back nine is a little better, with some real golf holes.  the front is nothing but awkward water.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Starting Sat., 5/1 - Get To Know Jim Colton
« Reply #116 on: August 15, 2010, 06:51:27 PM »

Matt

Welcome, hope you enjoy the site but boy have you joined at an interesting time. remember there are many good guys on his site, but one suggestion, don't talk about golf at this mopment, keep your head down as I think the game is about to start. You may or may not hear from me again depends how the coin flip goes, not had much luck of late. ;)  Always try and smile even when that's the last thing on your mind.

Again welcome to - well we will have to wait and see ;D

Melvyn :'( ;D ;D ;D

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