Vista Verde, Scottsdale

[Mickey Boland]

Taking a group trip to Scottsdale in a couple of weeks.  We had Grayhawk, WeKoPa Cholla, Legend Trail and one of the Boulders courses pickedt, and a friend recommended that we try Vista Verde.  Don't recall reading anything on this course, and wondered about opinions.  Worth trading in one of our other courses?

[Andy Troeger]

Absolutely. Its better than either of the Boulders Courses and I haven't played the rest of the courses on your itinerary. I wouldn't be totally surprised if its the best on your trip.

Its been discussed here many times, probably with photos. You might try a search for more details.

[Sven Nilsen]

Mickey:

Depends what you're looking for.  Vista Verde is definitely a minimalist experience.  Fun course to play and less expensive then almost anywhere else near Scottsdale.  You'll pay a lot more for Grayhawk and WKP, and you'll get an upgrade in conditioning and accoutrements.  If you're looking to play an interesting golf course, don't care if there's a clubhouse and want to save a few bones, play VV, if you want the full resort feel and don't mind paying up, go with Grayhawk or WKP.

[Ben Sims]

Taking a group trip to Scottsdale in a couple of weeks.  We had Grayhawk, WeKoPa Cholla, Legend Trail and one of the Boulders courses pickedt, and a friend recommended that we try Vista Verde.  Don't recall reading anything on this course, and wondered about opinions.  Worth trading in one of our other courses?

Mickey,

Not to get all golf course snobby on you.  But I'd trade Cholla for Saguaro at WeKoPa.  And really, you should find a way to see Talking Stick North.  I saw it this past weekend, and I had a ball.  Probably the best course on a completely flat site I've ever seen.  Just sublime.

Vista Verde looks good too, from the air.  Haven't played it yet, but it looks good nonetheless.

[Mickey Boland]

Thanks for the feedback guys.  Should have spent some time with the search feature before posting.  I did find plenty of comments on the course, all of which appeared favorable.

To answer you Sven, we are not necessarily looking for the resort experience, so your comment appear right up our alley.  We're just looking to play some interesting courses that give us the "desert" experience.

One of the concerns of the guy setting up the trip was course conditioning, based on something he had read regarding ownership changes, etc.  Anybody know anything in that regard currently, as we will be there in about 10 days?

[Mark Smolens]

Although I missed VV on my last trip (two weeks ago), I was told that it was playing firm and fast, and that the greens were very hard but putting true.  A buddy of mine was out three weeks ago and his group played up at the Boulders and were very disappointed.  It was the most expensive course they played, and their least favorite.  I would also second Sven's thought on playing Saguaro over Cholla.  Cholla's a much more difficult walk (they keep some Sun Mountain speed carts on the 1st tee at Saguaro for customers to use).  I played two balls as a single at Saguaro, and it was in fabulous shape, as was Sven's other choice -- Talking Stick North.

[Phil McDade]

One thread with pics:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38512.0/

and another:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,34006.0/

I believe this is one of Matt Ward's favorites in the desert, if that's worth anything. Ken Kavanaugh, brother of the long-lost John, did this course.

[Matt_Ward]

Mickey:

Not a doubt about it -- play Vista Verde. Good solid layout and has all the ingredients of a true desert golf experience.

Forget others that simply pick your pocket for more $$ and often are way too crowded and pushy to get you through the day.

Vista Verde ... ole !!!

[Jerry Kluger]

Vista Verde is refreshingly interesting for desert golf and is certainly worth playing.  The only downsides are no clubhouse so limited services and mandatory carts which are gasoline powered and noisy.  I haven't been there for a couple of years so maybe that's changed but it is still top of the list for public courses.  BTW: The second course at the TPC Scottsdale - not the stadium - I believe it is the champions course -  is really good and has a great walking rate. 

[Tony Weiler]

Definitely play VV.  Also, if at We Ko, play Saguaro over Cholla.  Both Grayhawk courses are worth it.  I've never played Boulders, so can't say what to switch out. 

[Jason Topp]

Ideally I would play both courses at We Ko Pa.  I probably like Saguaro over Cholla but they are very different courses and in my view both very good.

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

I haven't played WKP courses yet, but can 2nd the Vista Verde reco... again the key is it's all golf.  I mean, seriously, there's nothing else... bring your own refreshments!  Also, both Talking Stick courses are great... I really like the South course, and loved the North.

[Matthew Petersen]

Both WeKoPa courses are worthwhile. I do also enjoy both Grayhawk courses, and would favor either of those over The Boulders.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I understand there is a no aggies allowed policy.

[Dan Moore]

Anyone have an update on conditions at Apache Stronghold?  It was pretty rough when I played it 12/31 but looked like they were working on it to get ready for growing season.  If conditions are right its as good or better than all mentioned so far. 

[Tom Yost]

...
One of the concerns of the guy setting up the trip was course conditioning, based on something he had read regarding ownership changes, etc.  Anybody know anything in that regard currently, as we will be there in about 10 days?

Vista Verde overseeded only tees and greens this winter (dormant bermuda fairways).  Some may interpret this as sub-standard conditioning.  It has been warm for the last few weeks and the bermuda is coming out of dormancy and greening up nicely (at least at the other places I've played, no direct recent experience at VV however).  I think it should be in pretty good shape when you visit.

Don't know about any ownership changes.

[Steve Salmen]

I would personally take a pass on both Talking Stick courses.  They are flat, located close to downtown Scottsdale, in good condition, and have a great practice area.  If you enjoy playing the same hole over and over again, they are perfect, especially the North.  If you want to play a challenging course with great variety, play Southern Dunes.

[Roger Wolfe]

I have been there five times now.

Troon North is expensive but great.  The Pinnacle is great... Monument has a lot of houses.  A few years ago
they took the best nine from Pinnacle and the best nine from Monument and combined them to create the
new Pinnacle and the lesser Monument.

Chollla is like Troon North... more modern.  Saguaro is minimalist desert golf.  Both are awesome and the price is right.

Boulders is beautiful but like Troon North... houses, houses, houses.

Grayhawk is good... but I am not sure its worth the money.  Its flat and kind of boring compared to Pinnacle and both
WeKoPa's.

TPC Scottsdale is fun just because you will know almost all the holes.  But it was in bad shape last time we went in May.

Stay away from Sunridge Canyon, near WeKoPa.  The layout is OK, but they have bushes lining the fairways instead of
cactus and desert.  You will lose a million balls if everyone isn't single digit.

Eagle Mountain is a great warmup course.  The entire place is a big bowl, including the fairways.  Tough to lose a ball...
fun course.

WeKoPa has the advantage of being on the Indian reservation so there aren't any houses.  Its gorgeous.

If you want to stray a little North, Rancho Manana is another "house free" course in Cave Creek.  Beautiful views but
I am not sure about the condition.

Regardless... you will have a great great time!!!

[Tim Nugent]

Personally,from an architectual POV I'd play Boulders South everytime (I don't worry about houses, they are not an issue there) but it can be rather pricey.  Depends on what you are looking for.  If your going to PHX I wouldn't have a steady diet of just one style but rather a variety and try to sprread it out over a 'when-built' timeline to gat a better understanding of the design evolution.  PHX is one of the best places for this. If you do this, beg, borrow, steal your way on Desert Forest as  a starting point.

[Mickey Boland]

Just got back from my trip.  We played, in order, WeKoPa Cholla, Vista Verde, Boulders South and Grayhawk Talon.

Comments regarding Vista Verde were right on.  Not the resort experience (which we weren't really concerned about), but still some interesting desert golf.  Huge rolling greens with good dropoffs to the side.  There were a few greens that would hold at least three of the greens at my home course.  Conditioning was fine.  Still plenty of good homesites available.

Boulders was a great course visually and we all enjoyed the layout.  Once again, some pretty large greens.  Definitely not a course for walkers.  Excellent conditioning and great staff.  My putter had an unfortunate accident after my fourth 3-putt of the day, and one of the bag guys was actually going to let me have his putter to finish the trip.  I worked out a deal to give him my (now) 2-piece putter and some cash for his 2-ball putter, but it turned out he didn't have it with him.  

WeKoPa and Grayhawk kind of run together for me.  Somewhat similar in my mind as I sit here.  I'll have to look at some pictures to see if I'm right or not.  I think we would have enjoyed Grayhawk more if it hadn't been our fourth desert course in four days.  Greens were fairly slow compared to the others.  And, a funky island green par-3 that seemed out of place.

After traipsing around in the desert for three days, we finally saw our first rattler on the cart path by the 10th tee on Grayhawk.  We only had nine holes to go for the trip at that point, and that pretty much ended extensive ball searches.

As an extra piece of info, Hornacek's Golf at the corner of Pnnacle Peak and Pima is a great local shop.

And, Tiger, the no Aggies allowed policy was apparently waived when I showed up with my credit card.

I'll try to post some pictures soon.

[Brad Tufts]

I would personally take a pass on both Talking Stick courses.  They are flat, located close to downtown Scottsdale, in good condition, and have a great practice area.  If you enjoy playing the same hole over and over again, they are perfect, especially the North.  If you want to play a challenging course with great variety, play Southern Dunes.

I will disgree about TS-North.  It's different than most of the other courses in PHX, it plays links-like, and I didn't find it repetetive.  The other one, which I have not played, might fall into the same hole over and over category.

I will have to check out WKP Saguaro next time in PHX, as I have a feeling there will be similarities b/t it and TS-North.

[Matthew Petersen]

Talon is certainly not my favorite of the two Grayhawk courses, though honestly I don't see many similarities between it and the WeKoPa Cholla course.

[Tony Petersen]

I would personally take a pass on both Talking Stick courses.  They are flat, located close to downtown Scottsdale, in good condition, and have a great practice area.  If you enjoy playing the same hole over and over again, they are perfect, especially the North.  If you want to play a challenging course with great variety, play Southern Dunes.

I will disgree about TS-North.  It's different than most of the other courses in PHX, it plays links-like, and I didn't find it repetetive.  The other one, which I have not played, might fall into the same hole over and over category.

I will have to check out WKP Saguaro next time in PHX, as I have a feeling there will be similarities b/t it and TS-North.

Agreed... TS North is anything but boring, and I've played it too many times to remember. Oh, and don't miss out on Vista Verde. It's a tough track with some great pins and fun greens. Lots of push up, so get the short game in order