[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

Years ago I was doing a bit of consulting work at Kemper Lakes GC, and when they dug out the original plans of the course from the mid-1970's, I noticed that there was no grading at all shown in the fairways ... they just used the natural slopes.

I don't think that grading the fairways was done much at all until 1980.  Pete Dye had done it regularly before then ... Crooked Stick has many fairways that were graded ... but it did not become common until 1980.  And Nicklaus was the one who started flattening landing areas, I am pretty sure ... although come to think of it, Karl Olson showed us where C. B. Macdonald had made some flat spots for the short hitter at certain intervals on the fairways at National.

[Tony_Muldoon]

This is going to be one of my next research projects, except it will be for the UK.
The Track Iron / early Niblick (these are the ones about the size of the ball) seem to be gone away some time around 1880-85 and the Rut Iron seems to have taken over (they look like a smaller head Mashie). I think this is also the time "they" decided to dedicate courses to golf and not so much for public land. I can see where the first order of business would be to fill in the cart tracks. Reading late 19th century publications you can see how big a push there was to improve playing conditions.
I wonder if this was the actual start of pushing turf improvements.

I look forward to seeing this. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Would unflattened fairways have acted as an impediment to increased distance ?

Is the production of undulating fairways in the now extended DZ a valid defense to the long ball ?

[Melvyn Morrow]

When and why did American Golf  Transition to FLAT fairways - Good Question, still waiting for an answer to the question. I expect it will have something to do with carts perhaps 

Being serious, can't add much just I know that James Hunter had golf clubs in 1875 in Quebec which he took to Darien Georgia then Mobile in the summer of that year.  My understanding is that the Darien course of the 1870-80 would have been a reflection of Scottish courses more in tune with Prestwick.

Melvyn

[John Moore II]

Pat-How flat are you talking about? Because I have played courses where every fairway was exactly flat because the land was dead flat and the water table was low, so they didn't have the resources to move a whole lot of land around to make them undulated.

JKM,

My mistake, I assumed a certain level of intelligence for those reading this thread.

I'm NOT talking about naturally FLAT fairways being artificially massaged into undulating fairways, I'm talking about the process of FLATTENING naturally sloped, contoured and/or undulating fairways

In that case, I haven't seen very many fairways like that.

On the other hand, I haven't seen very many golf courses that had truly 'bumpy' fairways with little knobs and such throughout the fairway.
I don't know when they might have transitioned. But it seems that is probably came from a change in expectations from American golfers from bumpy, Scottish fairways to new fairways that would let them hit better shots more often and lead to good shots being rewarded with good results.

In other words, the dumbing down of the field of play to make it easier for golfers to hit their shots.

And it could be that not many American sites have had really unpredictable landforms, therefore, to avoid a course looking totally unnatural, the fairways were left mostly flat.

I can't accept your facts and/or your reasoning, but, you already knew that

I think we have made an effort to flatten out some of the more contoured fairways that have been in play. And of course you can't accept my facts or reasoning, what else is new? But really, how many courses in Florida have been built on naturally undulating land? Or most places any distance inland, anywhere? Certainly some places like Sand Hills have naturally undulating land, but most don't. That, to me, is part of the reason the fairways tend to be flatter. How flat are the fairways at Loch Lomond, an inland Irish course? And I do agree with you that much of the flattening has come because we want to dumb down the way we play golf, to a large degree.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom Doak,

Is the production of undulating fairways in the now extended DZ a valid defense to the long ball ?

Patrick:

A couple years ago when I was talking to the Tour about doing a course for them, I suggested that maybe on a couple of holes we should make the long hitters' landing area MORE undulating, so they could choose between a shorter approach off an undulating lie, or a longer approach from a flat lie.

I didn't get a verbal response, but from the looks on their faces, I would say that the Tour does not consider this "a valid defense".

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

That's interesting.

Unfortunately, I think the PGA tour has transitioned, primarily, into the entertainment business.

JKM,

One of the things I like about Hidden Creek is the undulating, natural fairways.
It doesn't look like there was any attempt to FLATTEN DZ's

I'm supposed to play a relatively new course (10 yrs) within the next few weeks and am anxious to examine their DZ's.

As to South Florida, it's flat, so I wouldn't expect undulating fairways, although, some courses like Old Marsh and The Medalist created inverted drainage systems which introduced undulations into the fairways for drainage purposes.
I believe Ben Hogan called Pine Tree the best FLAT course in America.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
I'll continue looking for the ad. 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
While I was looking I found this routing from July, 1900. The steamroller ad is also from 1900.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

It says that they used this on greens.

I don't believe it.

It would damage/crush the perimeters of most greens, especially those immediately adjacent to bunkers.

In addition, you tell me, how would this monstrous machine turn on the greens ?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
I only posted it, I can't explain it. 

It was from 1900, and used on the course that existed at that time, the one in the other photo. Maybe there weren't any drop offs or bunkers in a position to make its use impractical.

Are we in agreement that it could easily have been used on the fairgreens to "....crush all unevennesses from the ground"

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

Not yet.

The ad indicates that its use is an ongoing process.

I don't believe the ad.

Why, on an existing course, would you take this monstrosity out on a daily or weekly basis to flatten the fairways ?

[Duncan Betts]

What do you mean you don't believe the ad?

It's right there in black & white, its pretty hard to argue with the facts from 1900, by countering with a guess from 2010 isn't it?

[John Moore II]

JKM,

One of the things I like about Hidden Creek is the undulating, natural fairways.
It doesn't look like there was any attempt to FLATTEN DZ's

I'm supposed to play a relatively new course (10 yrs) within the next few weeks and am anxious to examine their DZ's.

As to South Florida, it's flat, so I wouldn't expect undulating fairways, although, some courses like Old Marsh and The Medalist created inverted drainage systems which introduced undulations into the fairways for drainage purposes.
I believe Ben Hogan called Pine Tree the best FLAT course in America.

Pat-Lets work this into a timeline and see where that might get us.

When do you think this "flattening" of fairways happened? (as far as new course construction?) : Is roughly 1950 a fair estimate, or perhaps later, 1960?

Do you think Robert Trent Jones may have started, or at least perpetuated, that trend of fairway flattening?

And do you think he might have been influenced by clients wanting more "traditional" courses with the standard 4-10-4 hole schedule and mostly flat fairways like seen at Augusta National, which was, at either of those times, becoming more and more popular as the Master's became more famous? (perhaps the early ANGC had subtle bumps and such in the fairways, in which case my arguement has no ground to stand, but its certainly, while hilly, not exceptionally bumpy within the fairways, for the most part. Certainly not "British Open" bumpy, which seems to be the benchmark of this discussion)

I think this trend away from bumpy fairways, like a few other notable trends, came about around the time when Augusta National because one of the most prominent American golf courses and caused a rather permanent shift in the American attitudes in regards to "fairness" in a golf course. (After all, how often to you see a well struck shot take some fickle bounce and wind up in a bunker at ANGC?)

[RSLivingston_III]

Duncan,

Bear in mind that exaggeration in advertising is not a recent invention. That is not to say that statement is not true, but I know I'd like to find another statement that might confirm it. I have to admit that the way it is written is fairly clear. Do any of these still exist? Any idea of what they might weigh and what the potential for leaving imbedded tracks might be? From the picture I am not clear which way it goes. Is the wide roller in the back or front?
I seem to remember a number of these steam roller ads in the mags of that era and acquiring another one or two might give a better idea of what they were really doing. The turning radius point is a fair issue. I have no question they were used for fairways.
I wonder if they made smaller ones that were appropriate for greens but showed their biggest beastie for the ad...

[Jim_Kennedy]

From The Hot Springs Village Voice, 2007:
The problems at Granada today are the uneven fairways which can be traced back to the heavy rains in 2003.  Supt. Don Jensen said he is addressing these problems by watering and rolling the fairways with a heavy street roller. This year his budget will let him do holes five, seven, 15 and 17. It will take two and a half years to complete the rolling project. By then, Granada should have smooth fairways on the entire course.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From The Life and Work of Wayne Stiles by Bob Labbance & Kevin Mendik:
His (Stiles) first contract was an 18-hole layout for the Nashua Country Club; his contact at the club was Oscar M. Flather. Golf had been played in Nashua since 1896, but the move to a new site in 1916 allowed Stiles to plan a modern layout. Stiles used a steamroller and teams of horses to manipulate the former farmlands, leaving “natural hazards” in many places. While the fairways were “mowed and smoothed off,” the bordering land was “left in the natural condition to add to the difficulties of the unfortunate golfer who drives his ball out of the way,” according to the Nashua Telegram. Irrigation was run to green sites and “the smooth greens would be the envy of a landscape gardener,” as “the grass is kept very short.”
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________
A personal experience: a club near me hired a new super and one of his first moves was to take the club's rather heavy tennis court roller to the greens. It left some ridges but they were worked out after a few days by their walk behind mowers.  Same thing was done to the fairways to remove washboards caused by careless mowing practices. The results were impressive.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________
 
Pat,
The writer's detailed description of the travels of the steamroller, i.e. negotiating the steep hills, crossing the railroad tracks, etc., lend credence to his account.
This rolling effort took place in 1900. I don't believe that the same lush turf that's seen on LI courses today was present at that time. I'd say the troubles CBM had with growing grass at NGLA might be a good example of this. It was most likely a thinner and scruffier grass at that time and frequent rolling would help establish a better growing medium by binding the sandy soils, and a by-product of that would be a firmer, more level playing surface.

Here's a photo of a steam roller for greens, ca. 1903

  Golf Roller at Lambton Golf and Country Club, Toronto |Source = Golf, official USGA Bulletin, May 1903, page 344 |Date = May 1903 |
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________
Here's H.J. Whigham on the subject of rolling, from "How To Play Golf":
"Your first object should be to get the turf all through the course in perfect condition. If your land has been lying fallow for several years, your grass is probably sufficiently strong to stand a heavy steam roller. You will find it less expensive to invest in the machine at once rather than waste time and money in working with a horse roller, which, in wet weather, does almost as much harm as it does good. Seaside courses and those which are situated in temperate climates, hardly require such drastic treatment. But on most of the inland courses of America which suffer from the severe frosts in winter, a steam roller will be found invaluable. From three to five tons is the best weight, and the width of the roller should be as great as possible. Roll the whole course as soon as the frost is fairly out of the ground, but beware against repeating the process too often. One good rolling in the spring ought to last a whole season.

......and another roller, photo properties reading: How-To-Play-Golf-2/images/Steam-Rollers-For-Golf-Courses


________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The photo from the Lambton course in Toronto shows a roller on the green. Although it's an old photo and not the clearest I think it shows just how rough the greens were and putting heavy rollers on them was quite possibly the main way at the time to create reasonable surfaces for semi-smooth putting.
Smae thing for some fairways, heavy rollers smoothed the ground and allowed the gang mowers to do a better job.   

[Tom MacWood]

Jim
That fascinating...I've never seen that contraption before.

[Patrick_Mucci]

What do you mean you don't believe the ad?

What I mean by, "I don't believe the ad" is, that I don't believe the ad.
Do you believe every ad you read or see on TV ?

It's right there in black & white, its pretty hard to argue with the facts from 1900, by countering with a guess from 2010 isn't it?

Duncan, it's not the existance of the ad, it's the claims made in the ad.

I can see that my qualifier to JKM has a more universal application.

Do you believe the claims of every ad you read in the paper or see on TV ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Gotta run this morning, but, I'll reply in depth this evening

Pat-Lets work this into a timeline and see where that might get us.

When do you think this "flattening" of fairways happened? (as far as new course construction?) : Is roughly 1950 a fair estimate, or perhaps later, 1960?

Do you think Robert Trent Jones may have started, or at least perpetuated, that trend of fairway flattening?

And do you think he might have been influenced by clients wanting more "traditional" courses with the standard 4-10-4 hole schedule and mostly flat fairways like seen at Augusta National, which was, at either of those times, becoming more and more popular as the Master's became more famous? (perhaps the early ANGC had subtle bumps and such in the fairways, in which case my arguement has no ground to stand, but its certainly, while hilly, not exceptionally bumpy within the fairways, for the most part.


JKM,

With respect to fairway bumps, they'd be invisible on TV, just like contouring is so hard to detect.
Undulations and bumps are two different features.  Why are you confusing bumps with undulations ?

As to intertwining 1950 with The Masters, the popularity of the televising of the tournament was in its infancy and the telecast itself was very abbreviated, hence, I think you're way off base with your starting/reference point.

Certainly not "British Open" bumpy, which seems to be the benchmark of this discussion)

NO, it's NOT.  That's your misquided sense of the benchmark.  I was quite clear in the second sentence in my initial post that the subject was UNDULATING fairways, NOT bumpy fairways.  Please enroll in a reading comprehension refresher course and stay on topic.
Or, start your own thread on "bumpy" fairways.

I think this trend away from bumpy fairways, like a few other notable trends, came about around the time when Augusta National because one of the most prominent American golf courses and caused a rather permanent shift in the American attitudes in regards to "fairness" in a golf course.

WHY would ANGC and the Masters cause the elimination of undulating fairways ?

There's NO connection, no evidence that ANGC caused their absence starting in the 50's.

Do you believe Tom Doak's contention that Nicklaus started the trend in the 80's.

(After all, how often to you see a well struck shot take some fickle bounce and wind up in a bunker at ANGC?)

[Willie_Dow]

Pat - Playing the Merion West Course yesterday got me thinking about the wonderful undulations that have been there for years.

I think it was purposely either left there, either caused by run-off for drainage, or to route the run-off to lessen routing.

I remember changing the course from the East to West for a Mid-Am following a hurricane some years ago, the 11th green on the East being under water.  Strangely, the scores were about the same at the end of play.

When did you play the West last ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Having just played a relatively new course (2000/01/01 ?) perhaps one of the reasons against undulating fairways is the drainage issue.

Perhaps the soils in the fairway troughs will "puddle up" and remain "puddled up" long after the rain has stopped and the other areas have drained to the degree that they're playable.

As soil quality deteriorates, I can see the desire to avoid troughs in the fairways.

[Willie_Dow]

As Kittleman would say .

There is more architecture on the West than the East .

I won't put this in " unless he comes in here !

[John Moore II]

Having just played a relatively new course (2000/01/01 ?) perhaps one of the reasons against undulating fairways is the drainage issue.

Perhaps the soils in the fairway troughs will "puddle up" and remain "puddled up" long after the rain has stopped and the other areas have drained to the degree that they're playable.

As soil quality deteriorates, I can see the desire to avoid troughs in the fairways.

You make a good point Pat. I think undulated fairways are hard to manage very well on courses with either non-sandy soil or no natural drainage ponds, streams, etc., around. Because if a course is built on dense soil, then the water can't go down into the surface and move out that way. Therefore, the water has to move around on the surface of the land, and any time you make an undulation, there will be a hill/peak and a valley. Unless the valley can drain to somewhere it will cause pooling on the grass. Even if it just drains into the trees and can puddle there, thats fine. That goes into my second point about natural ponds and streams that can be used for drainage. If a course is built near a large body of water, then undulations can be made in the fairways with ease, just engineer them so that the water will flow towards the natural water. But without a way to keep the water moving the fairways can't be too undulated or you will end up with water puddles after it rains.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JKM,

It would appear, that on sites with poor soil conditions, that without side to side slope, undulating fairways would cause playability and maintainance problems.

It's probably easier to flatten and cant them then to use the natural swales.

On sites where soil conditions are more than adequate, it would seem that undulations were eliminated for a variety of reasons, the potentially uneven, and therefore unacceptable playing conditions caused by the uneveness, the difficulty in producing a consistent mow, and probably some concessions to fairness.

I wonder too, how much quirky kicks were seen as unacceptable, and therefore, the features that produced them, eliminated ?

[John Moore II]

JKM,

It would appear, that on sites with poor soil conditions, that without side to side slope, undulating fairways would cause playability and maintainance problems.

It's probably easier to flatten and cant them then to use the natural swales.

I hope that is what you understood me to say, its certainly what I was intending to day. Any time that water has a place to pool, it will. So those type areas must be eliminated somehow. This can be done, expensively, with subsurface installed drainage, but the cheaper way to do it in the long run is to just flatten them out during construction.

On sites where soil conditions are more than adequate, it would seem that undulations were eliminated for a variety of reasons, the potentially uneven, and therefore unacceptable playing conditions caused by the uneveness, the difficulty in producing a consistent mow, and probably some concessions to fairness.

I wonder too, how much quirky kicks were seen as unacceptable, and therefore, the features that produced them, eliminated ?

But when did quirky kicks start being unaccepatable? And for what reason? Surely something must have prompted this change as most of the old courses I see from the UK and Ireland seem to have a good amount of bumps and undulation in the fairways. What course or phase in construction could have caused this change?  Do you think this undulation change and humpyness in the fairways has become more prominent these days? If that is the case, then perhaps it may have something to do with mowing practices, as you suggest. Some years ago, fairways were mowed with large, fixed reel gang mowers and only later transitioned into floating reel mowers and then to the style of mower that can be seen today. But if we have not seen a return of undulated fairways, then I have to wonder if mowing practices makes any difference?

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